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Trisquel GNU/Linux

trisquel.info

31–40 of 86 posts

Re: Trisquel GNU/Linux

#31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what almost every project advertising it is free of non-free stuff is: some other project with the non-free parts removed, nothing more. Trisquel (Ubuntu), linux-libre (linux), libreboot (coreboot), etc. When your sole selling point is lack of non-free stuff, there is no need to invest time adding anything else. E.g. linux-libre is just a big script that removes the nonfree parts and firmware support; they jus…

What about osboot, the new project by the libreboot author?

osboot is much more pragmatic, since it doesn't try to be 100% free of blobs but rather chooses platform support over that. AIUI it is partially a response to just how utterly useless libreboot had become (it can't support any recent platform).

Re: Trisquel GNU/Linux

#32
Trisquel is based on Ubuntu like other operating systems (Linux Mint, Pop!_OS, Zorin OS, etc.) but they do something unique - they rebuild the Ubuntu packages from source, instead of just including the Ubuntu repos in their software sources.

Trisquel is quite a usable distro for laptops that are 3-4 years old if you have an appropriate wireless card - Atheros 9xxx series cards tend to work well as the ath9k driver is FOSS. That's really the only blocker most people encounter. Why run this over Debian Stable (without adding "non-free" sources) I couldn't tell you. Debian tends to be more up to date than Trisquel since it's usually based on the previous Ubuntu LTS.

Re: Trisquel GNU/Linux

#33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“is a bit too extreme” Understatement of the year. You are a dev who wants to make some money on the side and keeps her software proprietary because monetizing open-source is a rare exception than the rule? F!@# her and her lack of ethics! And don’t touch her software, or her, with a 10 foot pole, let alone pay for it! Oh, there’s a proprietary firmware blob that this device requires, but it runs off onboard flash so…

What a reactive, defensive attitude. Just try applying everything you wrote to the topic of being vegetarian. Vegetarians are indeed arguing against meat-eating, and you could talk about how you are just some pig farmer selling meat on the side, and the vegetarians are saying "F You!" And then there's the practical problems with whether animal products are identified in various food products… And people get super def…

the same thing applies to vegetarians. Smart and effective vegetarians who want to promote vegetarianism don't fill a balloon with red paint and throw it at someone while screaming 'meat is murder!', they convince people to cut down their consumption, promote alternatives that ordinary people can deal with, and as a result get 50% of what they want to a hundred times as many people, which is more than 100% of nothing.

That's the difference between ideologues and people who actually care about the values they promote rather than people who aggrandize themselves.

Re: Trisquel GNU/Linux

#34
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Plus, the current policies of the FSF are completely inconsistent, out of touch with the reality of computing systems today, and based on arbitrary rules that end up reducing user freedom instead of increasing it (e.g. how they promote devices with firmware ROMs - which you do not have the freedom to inspect, modify, or replace with a free version - while deriding devices with firmware RAM and a blob, where you do h…

A consistent approach would forbid any use of Intel, AMD, or ARM processors (proprietary microcode in all of them) as well as any wireless technology (again, proprietary firmware). But the FSF has decided that if they can pretend that any proprietary code is somehow unchangeable hardware, or if not, if they don't tell people how to change it or if they even encourage vendors to prevent changing it, this somehow suppo…

Or they're incentivizing firmware-less or open-firmware devices, while drawing a line where people can still choose certain devices that meet their purpose.

Re: Trisquel GNU/Linux

#35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. I'm a strong supporter of FOSS, from a pragmatic point of view of how it helps users and gives them more freedom. I do not believe ideological arguments against proprietary software should be used to make technical decisions that limit users' options or keep them uninformed, because the freedom to choose to use proprietary software is also important. Plus, the current policies of the FSF are completely incons…

>Plus, the current policies of the FSF are completely inconsistent, out of touch with the reality of computing systems today, and based on arbitrary rules that end up reducing user freedom instead of increasing it (e.g. how they promote devices with firmware ROMs - which you do not have the freedom to inspect, modify, or replace with a free version - while deriding devices with firmware RAM and a blob, where you do h…

> unless everything is absolutely transparent including microcode and hardware it is not acceptable as freedom respecting solution.

Where do you draw the line?

Is it sufficient if all code executing on a Turing-complete CPU is open? Does the CPU itself need to be open RTL? What about the synthesis process to turn that into a netlist and then into a chip design, does that need to be open? What about the standard cell library from the chip foundry, does that need to be open? Then what about the actual foundry process - do you need documentation on how the chips are produced? What about all the raw materials? What about the machines used to make the chips?

You can keep going down the rabbit hole as deep as you want, but things will never be completely free. And you can't try to draw a random line, because the boundary between these steps isn't clear and that encourages cheating (which is what the FSF do).

Freedom isn't the answer. Freedom was a noble idea from the computing paradigm of the 80s that just doesn't work any more as an absolute goal.

The answer is to look beyond freedom and beyond meaningless absolutes, and towards what people get out of things being open. A device with more open source components is better because users have the freedom to modify them, and they are easier to audit to find security vulnerabilities. A device which sandboxes blobs - whether open or not - such that they cannot take over the system is better than one which does not. A device with proprietary firmware that you can modify and replace is better than one with signed firmware that you cannot. A device with signed firmware you can at least inspect is better than one with encrypted firmware you can't even see. A device with a firmware ROM you can't inspect or modify is worse than a device with signed and encrypted firmware blobs, because at least with the latter you can verify that the version you're running is what you expect, while you can't read the ROM at all. A device with encrypted firmware that only runs on boot and then is demonstrably out of the picture after that is better than one with privileged, resident blobs that continue running. A device with proprietary firmware that is at least redistributable to end-users of free OSes is better than one where it isn't. A device where it is reasonably easy to have end-users fetch said firmware even if it isn't redistributable is better than one where that is impractical. A device with mandatory user-controllable secure boot is better in some ways than a device with no secure boot at all, and worse in others.

Nuance matters. Absolutist positions don't work any more.

Re: Trisquel GNU/Linux

#36
post #34
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A consistent approach would forbid any use of Intel, AMD, or ARM processors (proprietary microcode in all of them) as well as any wireless technology (again, proprietary firmware). But the FSF has decided that if they can pretend that any proprietary code is somehow unchangeable hardware, or if not, if they don't tell people how to change it or if they even encourage vendors to prevent changing it, this somehow suppo…

Or they're incentivizing firmware-less or open-firmware devices, while drawing a line where people can still choose certain devices that meet their purpose.

But they aren't doing that; their Respects Your Freedom program is chock full of devices that run giant firmware blobs, which they conveniently ignore as long as they're on-device and not loaded from /lib/firmware, because as long as nobody notices they can keep believing they're living a blob-free life...

Things the FSF has explicitly incentivized:

- Moving firmware blobs from an obvious, inspectable place in the OS or bootloder to obscure firmware ROMs or Flash chips read by a convoluted process involving multiple CPUs, because somehow doing the latter makes it freedom-respecting? (Librem 5 story)

- Physically destroying optional hardware that currently cannot be used without blobs, so users are not tempted to use those blobs, regardless of whether free alternatives might appear in the future (spoiler alert: they did) (Stallman trying to get bunnie to permanently disable the GPU in the Novena free hardware/software laptop to get certified).

Re: Trisquel GNU/Linux

#37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get where they’re coming from, but this just sounds insane. If there were FOSS CPU microcode that could replace it or something and they only wanted to support that than fine, but if there’s no FOSS option why create security risks for users? I love the FOSS community, but sometimes their rationale is a bit too extreme for the average person to get behind.

“is a bit too extreme” Understatement of the year. You are a dev who wants to make some money on the side and keeps her software proprietary because monetizing open-source is a rare exception than the rule? F!@# her and her lack of ethics! And don’t touch her software, or her, with a 10 foot pole, let alone pay for it! Oh, there’s a proprietary firmware blob that this device requires, but it runs off onboard flash so…

>Understatement of the year. You are a dev who wants to make some money on the side and keeps her software proprietary because monetizing open-source is a rare exception than the rule? F!@# her and her lack of ethics! And don’t touch her software, or her, with a 10 foot pole, let alone pay for it!

Are you asking for the free software foundation to support proprietary software?

Re: Trisquel GNU/Linux

#38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“is a bit too extreme” Understatement of the year. You are a dev who wants to make some money on the side and keeps her software proprietary because monetizing open-source is a rare exception than the rule? F!@# her and her lack of ethics! And don’t touch her software, or her, with a 10 foot pole, let alone pay for it! Oh, there’s a proprietary firmware blob that this device requires, but it runs off onboard flash so…

This shouldn't be downvoted. It's an opinion that is unpopular here, but which needs to be stated occasionally. The FSF is extreme, and, right now, not 10-20 years ago, but right now, the FSF and Stallman are negative assets for FOSS.

How is it “extreme”? The point of the FSF is to foster and support free software. Supporting non-free software is literally the opposite of their mission.

The guy you replied to is being childish and exaggerating. The FSF isn’t some extremist organization out to destroy people who dare to write or use closed source software.

Do they refuse to include proprietary software in their distributions/projects? Obviously.

Are they going to tell you to go fuck yourself because you refuse to release the source code to your app? Probably not (I guess if you’re an asshole about it, someone might)

> the FSF and Stallman are negative assets for FOSS

The FSF and Stallman are the only assets for FOSS. Who else is supporting free software?

Re: Trisquel GNU/Linux

#39
post #2

Why Trisquel? > entirely free software > teach users to value and protect their freedom > no binary-only firmware for wireless cards or proprietary drivers for AMD/ATI and NVIDIA graphics cards are included

Do they have version that doesn't mimic windows? I do understand that it is intended to take on board as many former windows users as possible but honestly some people including me are getting sick just by looking at something that even slightly reminds it ... I wish the project the best, please understand.

How are they mimicking Windows? They've got a task bar (loosely), a start button (ish), and the traditional floating windows with a title bar that has buttons on it, but beyond that I'm not seeing any real similarities? Even then: The application menu is an actual menu unlike what Windows has had since... XP? The panel has launchers and open windows, but they're separate sections unlike Windows. I guess I'm just not sure what you're seeing that so reminds you of Windows.

Re: Trisquel GNU/Linux

#40
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or they're incentivizing firmware-less or open-firmware devices, while drawing a line where people can still choose certain devices that meet their purpose.

But they aren't doing that; their Respects Your Freedom program is chock full of devices that run giant firmware blobs, which they conveniently ignore as long as they're on-device and not loaded from /lib/firmware, because as long as nobody notices they can keep believing they're living a blob-free life... Things the FSF has explicitly incentivized: - Moving firmware blobs from an obvious, inspectable place in the OS…

Yeah, that makes little sense. Ideally you would want to point users to documented hardware, running QMK, or other (potentially reversed engineered) open-firmware.
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