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Is It Even Worth Working on FOSS Anymore?

gavinhoward.com

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Re: Is It Even Worth Working on FOSS Anymore?

#221

Post by rs999gti »

WBrentWilliams wrote: post #219

I think the problem is the word "free" in open source. Along the axis of freedom, this is a strength. You can read the source, figure out how it works, and adapt it to your uses. Or, as my senpai (pity English doesn't have a single word for "talented co-worker that demonstrates the ideas you haven't thought of yet) puts it, "I can read the source for a feature I like, and then I know how to do it, and I can avoid the…

> Criticism aside, how does one provide freedom to learn and explore while curtailing the free rider problem?

Make FOSS free for individuals. Developers can download, read, integrate, etc. the code or package for free at home on their personal PCs.

The moment FOSS software enters the corporate or academic space, it becomes a licensed product requiring fees and statements of work to be paid for licensing, use, and changes.

Re: Is It Even Worth Working on FOSS Anymore?

#222

Post by McWobbleston »

beebeepka wrote: post #171
southerntofu wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Don't work on FOSS that supports a SaaS or proprietary product. So true. I'd expand on that with a more specific example: game modders. When i look at all the energy spent on game mods which bring significant (gratis) value to commercial games, i can't help but wonder what the FOSS gamedev ecosystem would look like if all those dedicated people put their energy on free-software ecosystem. Minecraft for example made…

Please don't do this. The premise sounds good but some of the best things in gaming were conceived as mods. Team fortress was a Quake mod. Now, I personally don't blike moba games but Dota also started as a mod. Not to mention Quake OSP/CPMA/Defrag, UTComp, HLDM, Black Mesa and countless others.

It's really unfortunate how unfriendly games are to modding both technically and legally today. We've certainly missed out on a lot of potential

Re: Is It Even Worth Working on FOSS Anymore?

#223

Post by redthrow »

> I have written licenses to make GitHub hesitate before using my code as input to Copilot

I thought the solution was to treat FOSS as CC0 (public domain) [1], not create yet another license nobody's going to care or use.

CC0 is probably a better license for most FOSS & probably close to what happens in reality (sans a few exceptions) as TikTok and Copilot examples show.

[1] https://creativecommons.org/share-your-work/public-domain/cc...

Re: Is It Even Worth Working on FOSS Anymore?

#224

Post by McWobbleston »

WBrentWilliams wrote: post #219

I think the problem is the word "free" in open source. Along the axis of freedom, this is a strength. You can read the source, figure out how it works, and adapt it to your uses. Or, as my senpai (pity English doesn't have a single word for "talented co-worker that demonstrates the ideas you haven't thought of yet) puts it, "I can read the source for a feature I like, and then I know how to do it, and I can avoid the…

It's fun to see someone else describe the tokens for votes model. I've been working on my first 3D game trying to think of how I would support it if it's OSS while giving players direct input about the direction and what's implemented. Definitely a pipe dream for me right now but I'm really hoping I can manage to get to a state where that's a problem I have and people to collaborate with on solving

Re: Is It Even Worth Working on FOSS Anymore?

#225

Post by McWobbleston »

rs999gti wrote: post #218

Why not change from FOSS to FOSSFI. Where -FI is "for individuals". Then all businesses must pay to use FOSS. Is there any benefit in making FOSS free for all users including corporate users?

I could see it if you use the project for proprietary purposes yourself and are not the only contributor, or if you want to reach a wider audience with the project. In general though I'm surprised how large the permissive OSS ecosystem is, but I'm very thankful considering it makes my professional life easier

Re: Is It Even Worth Working on FOSS Anymore?

#226

Post by treebog »

rs999gti wrote: post #221
WBrentWilliams wrote: post #219

I think the problem is the word "free" in open source. Along the axis of freedom, this is a strength. You can read the source, figure out how it works, and adapt it to your uses. Or, as my senpai (pity English doesn't have a single word for "talented co-worker that demonstrates the ideas you haven't thought of yet) puts it, "I can read the source for a feature I like, and then I know how to do it, and I can avoid the…

> Criticism aside, how does one provide freedom to learn and explore while curtailing the free rider problem? Make FOSS free for individuals. Developers can download, read, integrate, etc. the code or package for free at home on their personal PCs. The moment FOSS software enters the corporate or academic space, it becomes a licensed product requiring fees and statements of work to be paid for licensing, use, and cha…

There are “free for non-commercial use” licenses, but that is inherently a non-free license. If you restrict what someone can do with the software, it’s not free as in speech.

Re: Is It Even Worth Working on FOSS Anymore?

#227

Post by thawkins »

GoblinSlayer wrote: post #67
adabaed wrote: post #25

Imagine blaming a FOSS dev/mantainer because you didn't do your job properly and trust a third party on a production code!

Ironically the maintainers can always say "fuck you, pay me", but they don't, because they know blaming is a good thing.

That should possibly be something that is added directly to the licenses, you can take my product free of charge, but if you want changes you have to pay me at this rate. Put contact details and an expiry date on the deal so people can't get jacked up with very old prices on very old versions. That would also encourage people to keep thier 3rd party inclusions up to date. I don't think that would pass muster as an OSS license but maybe a built in support contract should be a feature of the licenses, one that earns people proper money that makes OSS a model that supports maintainers.

Re: Is It Even Worth Working on FOSS Anymore?

#228

Post by sdiupIGPWEfh »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #198
sdiupIGPWEfh wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that's what you want to do and what you have the personal time for, that's fantastic. For others, being obligated to reach that level of polish means a ton of code will simply never happen. I'd liken it to an artist's sketchbook. If every piece is required to have the appearance of a master work, lest you be judged by it, then the sketches must remain private or else be destroyed (which they often were). But the m…

As an artist (by training. I don't really do that much, these days), I can relate. I used to have a big Strathmore sketchbook, that I took with me, everywhere, and, whenever I had the time, I would practice in it. I have old photos of me, with it. I was fairly scruffy-looking [still are -Ed.] , and the sketchbook was sort of my "brand." My classmates used to call me "Puff," because I liked drawing dragons. It got to…

> It got to the point, where even my rough sketches would be as good as finished works.

Hah, I feel like I understand more where you're coming from with that. I was the opposite, seeking to get my finished works to feel more like my rough sketches.

> I never really warmed to Boris Valleho's work (he used to hang in a gallery that I had work in, and I met him), but I have to admit, that guy can draw.

That he can draw is undeniable indeed. There are a few artists whose sketch work reaches that level of refinement almost immediately. Others get there after years of study and practice. Still others don't see that at as a goal at all for that stage of their process, and others still would see it as an antithesis to what they're after. Looking at Valleho's finished work, I can at least understand how his sketches are in service to that sort of end state.

Compare, perhaps, to some Rennaisance-era sketches. Typically far rougher compared to the finished works, but hardly less impressive. I'd suggest there's a great difference in what they were interested in: matters of anatomy, gesture, and composition. Of course, they were also inventing and rediscovering knowledge that modern artists have far easier access to. There's an interesting dichotomy in that some destroyed their sketch work, while others had far less interest in actually finishing anything.

I've forgotten an appalling degree of art history, so I can't readily name names, but as far as finished works go, I had a fondness for painters using relatively minimalist brush strokes, with each application of paint exactly the right color in exactly the right place.

Re: Is It Even Worth Working on FOSS Anymore?

#229

Post by Retric »

chongli wrote: post #215
Retric wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s fine if someone picks up and uses a project I worked on. That’s what OSS is for, but the Linux kernel doesn’t need my support to keep going as it’s self sustaining at this point. Plenty of other projects are in serious need of active support and keeping them afloat is simply a better use of my time.

Having your project picked up by commercial users is entirely the problem this heuristic is intended to avoid. It’s also the central problem from the linked article: commercial users take from open source projects and often don’t give anything back. They also tend to externalize any costs they have from use of the project onto the project maintainers. Maybe you’re okay with being treated the way the log4j maintainers…

“Being treated” implies a lot of things.

Someone using something I have written doesn’t cost me anything, but it also doesn’t create any obligations for me. I don’t need to make my contact info public, or have any interactions with users whatsoever.

log4j accepted donations which is really it’s own thing. Running a charity, which is what it means to get paid full time to maintain OSS, has a host of issues that have little to do with OSS and a lot to do with public relations.

Re: Is It Even Worth Working on FOSS Anymore?

#230

Post by ghoward »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #75

This feels more like a cry for help, hope the author is doing okay. Christmas can be a rough time for many people. To answer the question though, like climate change, or whatever big issue, there's personal things you can do, there's groups you can join but we're in a democracy and pushing for things to be put into laws and then enforced is better than relying on copyright which was never really designed or operated…

Author here.

I'm fine and stable, just discouraged and feeling like software, which is the only talent I have, is not good for me to work on because it may do more harm than good.

I have a good wife who is supportive and makes sure I am okay.

Thank you for the concern!

> To answer the question though, like climate change, or whatever big issue, there's personal things you can do, there's groups you can join but we're in a democracy and pushing for things to be put into laws and then enforced is better than relying on copyright which was never really designed or operated with the best intests of society as a driver, despite that being the official spin.

I think you're right, here. Laws may be what is necessary.

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