Is It Even Worth Working on FOSS Anymore? • Hacker News Board

Re: Is It Even Worth Working on FOSS Anymore?

#201

Post by chongli » Fri, Dec 24, 2021, 2:29 PM UTC

cobertos wrote: post #73

Only certain FOSS is worth working on for me. Here's my heuristic as of today. * Don't work on FOSS that supports a SaaS or proprietary product. You're enriching someone else's ecosystem for no money. You take on the communication bandwidth and issue load of dealing with not only your issues but their issues too. Your software is useless if theirs fails. It's thankless. * Don't work on FOSS you aren't using yourself…

That first heuristic is very difficult. It means you can’t work on the Linux kernel or pretty much anything that could be used for server infrastructure.

It also means you’re very restricted in license choices since you otherwise never know if your project might get picked up in the future and used in a proprietary service. This likely means you have to use something like AGPL.

Re: Is It Even Worth Working on FOSS Anymore?

#202

Post by Melkman » Fri, Dec 24, 2021, 2:31 PM UTC

nopenopenopeno wrote: post #39

IceWreck wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The FOSS that was imagined by Stallman, where end-users could actually use FOSS products in their everyday lives, is not possible under capitalism I have to disagree. Use a Linux based operating system, self-host your internet services at home, use google free android, or do a subset of that. Its all open source and works locally.

end-user != IT professionals For average end-users, “use a linux based operating system” alone comprises a mountain of barriers, but most are rarely even approached because they’re preempted by lack of reliable hardware support and lack of support for staple applications like Word, Excel, and Photoshop.

End users have no problem -using- a Linux computer. My 75+ year old mom uses it and can do everything she wants. Mostly things she wants to do are web-based. A Chromebook would probably be fine for her too. No, she didn't install it herself. But she never installed Windows her self too. And yes I had to fiddle a bit with Wine to get her online bridge (the card game) program working. For older people things like W11 upgrade being pushed is hell. They click a button that popped up without knowing what it will do and if everything goes well the desktop has changed and the don't know where to click anymore. If the upgrade doesn't go well they are entirely lost.

Re: Is It Even Worth Working on FOSS Anymore?

#203

Post by mgaunard » Fri, Dec 24, 2021, 2:31 PM UTC

chii wrote: post #78

mgaunard wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well that's precisely how it works, why would you expect an employer to review your code for free? Instead they'll just look at whether you contributed to big projects. Someone who managed to make significant contributions to Linux or LLVM for example might be better than the average joe.

> Someone who managed to make significant contributions to Linux or LLVM for example might be better than the average joe. which leads to people who want to use this mechanism to claim credit in projects they don't actually have contributions in, and because the employer doesn't actually look at the code, they cannot tell. I recall a while ago where someone would contribute a skeleton README or some random typo fixes…

There will always be people that lie or embelish what they did. One of the big reasons for technical interviews is to assess how much of what the candidate claims is true.

Re: Is It Even Worth Working on FOSS Anymore?

#204

Post by atq2119 » Fri, Dec 24, 2021, 2:36 PM UTC

99_00 wrote: post #57

scotty79 wrote: post #44

For me open source is like math. You don't work on math so that people will thank you for working on math. You don't expect people using math you developed contributing back to math or paying you. You get paid however you managed to organize getting paid. And work on the math for the math and nothing else. If you have other expectations maybe you'll find other endeavours more fulfilling. Which is sad but it is what i…

Software needs to be maintained to be useful. Proofs don't. So for many, it is not the same.

Try reading a 19th century or earlier math paper and then tell us again that proofs don't need maintenance...

Re: Is It Even Worth Working on FOSS Anymore?

#205

Post by austincheney » Fri, Dec 24, 2021, 2:36 PM UTC

bregma wrote: post #139

austincheney wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That does not work. After several years of hard work a prior open source project that grew to immense popularity got me employment a few times. It wasn’t the actual project, code, or capabilities that meant anything. The only thing appealing about that project was it’s popularity. Nobody ever looked at the code, except people interested in submitting pull requests. If you think a prospective employer will take the ti…

A part of my job is to review CVs and select candidates to interview for my team. The first thing I do is check to see if they have a github account, and if they do I check their projects. Anything that looks relevant gets a quick inspection. It makes difference to whether they get an interview, and it makes for some topics of discussion during the interview. It confirms for me that the candidate is in fact actually…

Perhaps it’s because I write JavaScript. Interviews in JavaScript, at least this year, are leet code for backend and strangely the Node API never seems to come up. The front end is islands of declarative logic in React. That’s it.

GitHub and LinkedIn profiles only serve to reinforce the job experience printed on the resume.

Re: Is It Even Worth Working on FOSS Anymore?

#206

Post by carols10cents » Fri, Dec 24, 2021, 2:36 PM UTC

southerntofu wrote: post #137

> The logging companies learned the lesson, and it’s time the software industry learned it. Nitpicking from the main point, but logging companies are still destroying our planet/forests. They haven't learnt a single lesson. The most valuable woods come from very unsustainable exploitations far away (from my perspective, eg. Philippines/Canada), and as for the so-called "sustainable" local exploitations here in France…

Yup, this. And in places where logging companies aren't ruining forests, it's because of government regulation.

Re: Is It Even Worth Working on FOSS Anymore?

#207

Post by HWR_14 » Fri, Dec 24, 2021, 2:41 PM UTC

chii wrote: post #76

piaste wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfalsifiable. You're basically saying "they're adults, so if they do it they must necessarily get value from it". Myth of the rational maintainer, if you will. In real life, people get (mentally) stuck into suboptimal situations where leaving would make them happier all the friggin' time . Bad jobs they should have quit. Bad partners they should have broken up with. Why not bad open-source projects they should have…

one would just assume that people doing it are making a rational choice, and don't need someone else to second guess it. What's so wrong with this line of thinking?

The entire post your responding to is explaining what is wrong "this line of thinking" and while you may disagree you don't really argue, you just assert.

Re: Is It Even Worth Working on FOSS Anymore?

#208

Post by icambron » Fri, Dec 24, 2021, 2:41 PM UTC

These articles never clearly state what problem they want to solve. Some candidates that seem obliquely implied:

- That you personally don't feel motivated to make OSS because of the way it's structured. Of course no one can fault you for that; that's the default position. Same for me and, say, juggling. But should the ecosystem really reorient itself around encouraging you--and specifically you--to participate?

- That there was some implicit social contract that has been recently violated by the commercial use of permissively licensed stuff. But there was no such social contract, the OSS dynamics haven't changed recently, and the whole point of the MIT and Apache licenses is to allow this.

- That the ecosystem doesn't have a structure that lends itself to the flourishing of OSS. This one is just clearly untrue; look around.

I hear all this vague grousing about the state of a system that seems to be working really well and for which participation is entirely voluntary. What problem do we want to solve again?

(There was also something in this article about ads in paid products, which I also find obnoxious, but that seems like a non sequitur? Did I miss something there?)

Re: Is It Even Worth Working on FOSS Anymore?

#209

Post by janto » Fri, Dec 24, 2021, 2:42 PM UTC

liveoneggs wrote: post #189

janto wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ha! Equating the relative value and effort that went into the underlying FOSS tech to "just a pencil", is a pretty accurate description of what a company does. In reality, many a company would put a frame around the picture and market itself as an innovative artist. There's value in the frame, sure...however...

go make a pencil this afternoon

indeed, it is easy to miss the shoulders we stand on

Re: Is It Even Worth Working on FOSS Anymore?

#210

Post by Retric » Fri, Dec 24, 2021, 2:43 PM UTC

chongli wrote: post #201

cobertos wrote: post #73

Only certain FOSS is worth working on for me. Here's my heuristic as of today. * Don't work on FOSS that supports a SaaS or proprietary product. You're enriching someone else's ecosystem for no money. You take on the communication bandwidth and issue load of dealing with not only your issues but their issues too. Your software is useless if theirs fails. It's thankless. * Don't work on FOSS you aren't using yourself…

That first heuristic is very difficult. It means you can’t work on the Linux kernel or pretty much anything that could be used for server infrastructure. It also means you’re very restricted in license choices since you otherwise never know if your project might get picked up in the future and used in a proprietary service. This likely means you have to use something like AGPL.

It’s fine if someone picks up and uses a project I worked on. That’s what OSS is for, but the Linux kernel doesn’t need my support to keep going as it’s self sustaining at this point. Plenty of other projects are in serious need of active support and keeping them afloat is simply a better use of my time.