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Don't dumb girls down

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211–220 of 273 posts

Re: Don't dumb girls down

#211
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

/me grins You don't get off that lightly. I am not straw-manning your argument, and i was not the one to raise the issue of eating disorders. My point is that you are ignoring context. Telling someone that they are pretty is not just a one off event that you are offering to another person, to be held in a pristine platonic form. It is an event that takes place in the gestalt of their daily interactions, and more spec…

I don't know that much about anorexia, but I suspect it doesn't have to do anything with beauty ideals at all (case in point: anorexia does not look pretty). It is more about control issues (I suppose). I know it can hurt to feel ugly, though, so I don't think it is a bad thing to be reminded now and then that you are not ugly (at least not to everyone). About pretty little girls: I was taught in biology class that b…

Anorexia is absolutely about beauty ideals. Indeed you are right: anorexia does not look pretty; anorexia is about what the patient sees when they look in the mirror: it is a perceptual disorder in a sense. Regardless of the actual weight of the person in the mirror, the anorexic sees an overweight figure looking back at them.

Bulimia is more about control, that's the one that involves purging. It usually coexists with anorexia in the same patient, and goes in cycles. The patient keeps undereating due to the distorted perception of their body size, until they become so underweight that even they cannot deny their problem. Then they begin overeating to compensate for this, and then they are racked by shame due to the overeating and start purging, and the whole awful cycle begins again.

Anorexia is not a trivial teenage anxiety disorder, it has a survival rate of around 80%. A horrible business.

Re: Don't dumb girls down

#212
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know that much about anorexia, but I suspect it doesn't have to do anything with beauty ideals at all (case in point: anorexia does not look pretty). It is more about control issues (I suppose). I know it can hurt to feel ugly, though, so I don't think it is a bad thing to be reminded now and then that you are not ugly (at least not to everyone). About pretty little girls: I was taught in biology class that b…

Anorexia is absolutely about beauty ideals. Indeed you are right: anorexia does not look pretty; anorexia is about what the patient sees when they look in the mirror: it is a perceptual disorder in a sense. Regardless of the actual weight of the person in the mirror, the anorexic sees an overweight figure looking back at them. Bulimia is more about control, that's the one that involves purging. It usually coexists wi…

Do you have sources for that? Because I really don't think it is correct. I don't know anybody with anorexia, but I know several therapists. Not that I have inquired much about the problem, but I simply have heard different things. In fact the first hit for "anorexia causes" (with DuckDuckGo) seems to confirm my thoughts: http://helpguide.org/mental/anorexia_signs_symptoms_causes_t...

"Believe it or not, anorexia isn’t really about food and weight—at least not at its core. Eating disorders are much more complicated than that. The food and weight-related issues are symptoms of something deeper: things like depression, loneliness, insecurity, pressure to be perfect, or feeling out of control. Things that no amount of dieting or weight loss can cure."

Of course blaming it on beauty ideals conveyed in the media is an easy way out for relations of anorexic persons, who then don't have to confront the real issues.

Re: Don't dumb girls down

#213
post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Are we to defy natural selection? Hell yes. Have you ever been to a hospital? Defying natural selection is what makes us human beings.

What do you mean? Cosmetic surgery?

I mean pretty much everything that goes on in a hospital. Every time someone is prevented from dying, we are defying natural selection.

In a sense, all use of technology raises us above our biology. In another sense of course, all our technological innovations are only a product of our naturally selected abilities, higher cognition, opposable thumbs etc. However, when you take this view, it renders the whole point moot, because it merges our higher social behaviours with our innate ones and erases the whole distinction.

Re: Don't dumb girls down

#214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 5.4% of girls and 14.1% of boys age 11 - 17 have been diagnosed with ADHD. Wait what ?! How did we manage to have a disorder that affects nearly 10% teenagers? There must be something odd with either the school system or the term "disorder" itself, because otherwise, such a flaw would likely have been filtered out of the gene pool. I wonder which it is. (Same remark for learning "disabilities" by the way, though I'…

"How did we manage to have a disorder that affects nearly 10% teenagers?" A combination of rising maternal age, increased body load of many environment contaminants, terrible diets, ubiquitous TV watching before age 2, parental drug use (everything from starbucks to antibiotics), etc. From a draft version of the latest EPA report: "Between 1993 and 2007, the rate of preterm birth rose from 11.0% of births in 1993 to…

It's most definitely over diagnosed. When we were seeking help for my son, the blanket solution was to diagnose ADHD even if some of the results contradicted it. One doctor even went so far as to say that she would diagnose him with 'whatever' to qualify for the most services possible.

Re: Don't dumb girls down

#215
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Obviously there are easily observed physiological differences in brain structure and in the endocrine system etc, however it is a massive leap to go from that to asserting that observed differences in behaviour are down to this rather than down to societal factors. It's actually no leap at all. Evolution put those differences in brain structure for a reason. It certainly isn't random, but due to some evolutionary be…

In other words, you missed the point entirely: this is more continued evidence-free speculation, complete with hand-wave theorization that there has been a gender-based task division matching the dominant Western religious-driven socialization for hundreds of thousands of years when we have no data for more than a small percentage of that period and considerable evidence that the proposed specialization wasn't global…

>In other words, you missed the point entirely: this is more continued evidence-free speculation,

Actually it's not evidence-free, it is a simple application of evolutionary theory. The "point" of the OP's post, as he stated directly, was that there was no "evidence" supporting the theory that observed gender difference are biologically caused. Pointing out that different brain structures between male and females means different behavior that would necessarily be observable directly refutes that point.

> complete with hand-wave theorization that there has been a gender-based task division matching the dominant Western religious-driven socialization for hundreds of thousands of years

Again, application of theory. Tens of thousands of years ago, our low level of technological development necessitated specialization. A family back then would have no other option than division of tasks based on gender because, for example, someone had to stay close to camp and care for children and someone had to go out on the physically more demanding food gathering tasks. Which genders do you think would do what? If you can visualize some way it would be more efficient for the males to constant shuttle back to camp from a hunting trip to tend the baby instead of just staying out as the job required, or for the females to do the hunting with their significantly less muscular bodies and the males to tend to the infants at camp without breasts, then by all means, do. Otherwise its a fairly obvious conclusion to be drawn from simple establish facts (women are statistically less muscular, men don't have breasts.)

>It's highly likely that there are measurable differences in the capabilities between male and female brains but neuroscience is very far from being able to explain anything high-level enough to start speculating about the complex skills relevant to these discussions

Who said anything about "high-level" being the criteria? You seemed to have pulled that qualification out of thin air.

>The other major confound is that many people rely on MRI data to support claimed differences and even assuming that the technology is precise enough and the relevant brain structures well understood enough

That misses the point, we don't have to understand the brain structure to know that a physiological difference in the brain will cause behavior differences, it's functionally necessary. You don't have different brain structures without an equivalent differences in behavior. It's also not important that we can't detect less significant differences in brain physiology because MRIs aren't more precise than they are; they have a specific scanning resolution and can therefore detect features reliably that are above the minimum resolving dimensions of the MRI. Those are the features being talked about here.

And as far as the assertion that some of these brain differences are caused by nurture, there are simply some gender based brain differences that are too consistent and develop too early to be explained by anything as variable as culture or upbringing.

>Finally, "Evolution put those differences in brain structure for a reason" demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of the mechanism: there are many, many examples of things which exist by accident

Actually, that is a fundamental misunderstand of evolutionary mechanisms, it is essentially impossible to have reliably observed features in a species that are not caused by evolutionary benefit. A side effect feature which you are proposing is a moot point, because side effect features are still connected to some other distinct feature that is beneficial evolutionary, and if the side effect feature is only observed in one gender then the primary-beneficial feature which causes it is still also in one gender only, and we are still in a situation where one gender is different from another via physiological brain differences.

Re: Don't dumb girls down

#216
post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anorexia is absolutely about beauty ideals. Indeed you are right: anorexia does not look pretty; anorexia is about what the patient sees when they look in the mirror: it is a perceptual disorder in a sense. Regardless of the actual weight of the person in the mirror, the anorexic sees an overweight figure looking back at them. Bulimia is more about control, that's the one that involves purging. It usually coexists wi…

Do you have sources for that? Because I really don't think it is correct. I don't know anybody with anorexia, but I know several therapists. Not that I have inquired much about the problem, but I simply have heard different things. In fact the first hit for "anorexia causes" (with DuckDuckGo) seems to confirm my thoughts: http://helpguide.org/mental/anorexia_signs_symptoms_causes_t... "Believe it or not, anorexia isn…

We are confusing causes with symptoms. Anorexia may well be caused by deeper problems with the person's life, the ones you list in the quote, general sources of depression. However "anorexia" refers to a form of depression that manifests itself in issues with eating and weight. It is not the depression that kills patients, it's the undereating and the vomiting. Therefore it is entirely appropriate to discuss, deal with and treat the eating/food/weight aspects of anorexia patients' lives. When looking to actually cure the patient, therapists will indeed look to deeper issues in the person's psychology/environment. These will likely be specific to the patient, and so it is not really productive to discuss them in general terms accross populations. That can be dangerous, this kind of thinking is what lead to the concept of the "schitzogenic mother."

Also, this quote shows a big misunderstanding:

"Things that no amount of dieting or weight loss can cure."

Nobody claims that weight loss can cure anoreixa. Anorexia is basically the irrational desire for weight loss. Being cured of anorexia essentially involves stopping ones extreme irrational weight loss behaviour, and it is self evident that no amount of weight loss can cure this.

Re: Don't dumb girls down

#217
post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

when nearly every culture in the world seems to have pretty much the same sort of normative ideas about men and women. You're saying Saudi Arabia is like USA now? Have you even watched the TV show Mad Men? 1960s USA was different from 2000s USA.

Sorry, same sort of normative ideas + Reductio ad absurdum = what you said. Clearly, there are cultural differences. However, name one country that’s military is made up of significantly more women than men. Far more women in the US go to college today than men do, go back 50 years and the ratios was very different. So clearly cultural norms change, yet there is less cultural diversity than you would expect if biolog…

The lack of women in the military is purely a result of sound military strategy. Suppose two idealized states in a perpetual state of war, where they have frequent engagements in which both sides lose 50% of their soldiers in each generation. The state that uses no women as soldiers whatsoever will eventually win.

This is because of biology, but it is not because of any sort of hardwired instincts. It's just that 200 men and 200 women can on average have the same number of children as 100 men and 200 women, but the reverse is not true. 200 men and 100 women can have roughly the same number of children as 50 men and 100 women.

Re: Don't dumb girls down

#218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What did your anthropology professors tell you? I'm talking about the very basic level , where women generally have nurturing roles: raising children, caring for the sick and dying, preparing food/clothing. Obviously there are examples of cultures where men cook or women hunt, but I can't find any culture around the world where women don't traditionally have nurturing roles.

> Obviously there are examples of cultures where men cook or women hunt, but I can't find any culture around the world where women don't traditionally have nurturing roles. How much of this, do you figure, is survivor bias? If there were just a few dominant cultures historically who happened to have a patriarchal bias and which went on to be profoundly influential over a large volume of the planet (like, say, the Rom…

The Aka represent sex roles that have underlying characteristics familiar to all cultures. Some culture in the world must have the most objectively nurturing fathers, and the Aka happen to be it. But, it's the poorer in their society that are nurturing. High status Aka men who have enough resources accumulate multiple wives and offload nurturing onto them. This wouldn't raise the eyebrows of any student who's studied the history of human cultures around the globe. Instead, it'd be shocking if it turned out that high status women married multiple husbands to take care of the nurturing.

Re: Don't dumb girls down

#219
post #58
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Human biology is not that quick to change. No, but a lot of things with regards to our current expected behaviour of genders is in fact social, not biological. A lot of 18th century male behaviour would today be regarded as effeminate. Red was once the color of choice for baby boys, and blue for girls. >Artificially boosting the career success of women just causes misery on the long run for men Hang on, did anyone p…

>Hang on, did anyone propose affirmative action here or something? All the blog talked about was trying to praise girls for their smarts rather than their looks. If this is enough to cause misery for you, I think you have self-esteem issues. As the pool of eligible husbands diminishes, the pool of men who simply can't get a wife grows and the disparity between the lucky and unlucky men increases. I'm sure you can see…

Wait, are you saying that we need to encourage women to be less capable because the career market is zero sum, and men need careers more than women?

I'm very open to the idea that I misunderstood your statement, but if I have characterized it correctly, then the flaw in it is that careers are not zero sum, and having additional capable, productive people in a society creates more wealth for the society as a whole than would otherwise have existed. This creates more opportunities for men as well as women.

Re: Don't dumb girls down

#220
post #160

To all the people in this thread who seem so absolutely sure that the gender differences are strictly biological, do you fancy telling us what exactly makes you so sure? Last time I checked there was no evidence to support this idea. Obviously there are easily observed physiological differences in brain structure and in the endocrine system etc, however it is a massive leap to go from that to asserting that observed…

> our social/political/economic hegemony. Hm, sorry, what hegemony are you talking about? I always wonder why people who go all excited about gender issues can't accept that women are not men and do not have to be like men? Your 'hegemony' (I assume you speak the well known thesis about male-dominated society) may not actually exist, and the 5 year old's desire to look attractive may not be bad at at all. Imagine, th…

Yes, of course, these things are normal. But they are holding our society back. Now, maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but you seem to be seriously advocating that physical appearance is one of the primary traits that we as a society should be seeking to improve in women.

Even if we accept that the role of women is in the home and that the role of women is to find a suitable mate, (which I do not) I would say that is all the more reason that we need to ensure that women are highly educated and unconcerned with their looks. They're entrusted day in and day out with raising the next generation of great engineers, scientists, and entrepreneurs. Why would we entrust that task to people primarily concerned with their own looks?

I really don't understand where you're coming from when you argue that looking pretty is essential to the "sacred passion" of home-making. If it is indeed a sacred passion, the primary responsibility is that of an educator and nurturer.

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