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Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

economist.com

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Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#691

Post by CRConrad »

jeswin wrote: post #251
alkonaut wrote: post #243

China has already started pressuring companies with manufacturing in China such as Continental, that they should get out of Lithuania or risk losing access to the Chinese market. This just goes to show one thing: western companies have to leave the Chinese market and all its money on the table . Unless you are ready to live under constant threat of political pressure/blackmail, risk being spied on, forced to censorsh…

> This just goes to show one thing: western companies have to leave the Chinese market and all its money on the table. Part of the problem is that executive compensation is more short-term results focused.

Feels more and more like that's part of many many problems, perhaps most of them. And usually not a particularly small part.

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#692

Post by CRConrad »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #86
Enginerrrd wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah, it would require them to put principles over the profit of a few constituents. China's geopolitical strategy is brilliant. They see that their adversaries in democratic western countries are beholden to the quarterly profits of a handful of corporations. China, unlike any of the Western nations, WILL take a stand on their principles over profit (At least they seem to, but more on that in a second.) So, they've r…

> China, unlike any of the Western nations, WILL take a stand on their principles over profit Surely that's a joke, right? China, which still has the audacity to call itself a "Communist" nation, which is basically much closer to a Fascist system, with their authoritarian and state-directed control of capitalism? China has one primary governing principle, which is to keep the CCP in power. Their primary way of doing…

>> China, unlike any of the Western nations, WILL take a stand on their principles over profit

> Surely that's a joke, right?

Nah, it's just an obvious truth.

> China, which still has the audacity to call itself a "Communist" nation, which is basically much closer to a Fascist system, with their authoritarian and state-directed control of capitalism?

That's pretty much what "communism" worked out to in the Soviet Union -- well, in the entire Warsaw Pact -- too. So in practice, that's pretty much what "communism" means nowadays.

> China has one primary governing principle, which is to keep the CCP in power.

Yup, exactly.

And they sure do stand by that principle, don't they?

Q.E.D.

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#693

Post by CRConrad »

FooBarWidget wrote: post #110
lmilcin wrote: post #4

There is a simple solution. If most of western world allowed Taiwan embassies China would have to relent. They can't afford having entire western world stand against them. Unfortunately, that would require western nations to agree on something.

I think you greatly underestimates what Taiwan means to China. People in the west are quick to dismiss any claims by China on Taiwan as having any legitimacy, viewing it purely as expansionism. But regardless of whether the western view of that is right (or ought to be right), the Chinese don't view it that way: they view it as a sovereignty issue, as an unfinished part of the Chinese civil war, and as part of the US…

> they view it as a sovereignty issue, as an unfinished part of the Chinese civil war

Yeah, sure. So do I... Only I'm rooting for the "good" side in the Chinese civil war -- the side currently holding Formosa.

And so should you, and everyone else too.

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#694

Post by CRConrad »

phantomathkg wrote: post #118
lmilcin wrote: post #4

There is a simple solution. If most of western world allowed Taiwan embassies China would have to relent. They can't afford having entire western world stand against them. Unfortunately, that would require western nations to agree on something.

What needs to happen is for every countries that adopts the One China Policy [1] to drop that policy and establish formal recognition of Taiwan. However, this will be tougher than other countries that are newly formed like Kosovo. China will surely use its influence to make sure it won't happened. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-China_policy

Or keep the "One China Policy", but switch which China that is. Oh, I see that's called the "One-China principle"... Good -- it sounds so similar, politicians the world over can start saying they stand by the One-China principle like they've always done, and most people won't even notice the difference.

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#695

Post by seanmcdirmid »

CRConrad wrote: post #694
phantomathkg wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What needs to happen is for every countries that adopts the One China Policy [1] to drop that policy and establish formal recognition of Taiwan. However, this will be tougher than other countries that are newly formed like Kosovo. China will surely use its influence to make sure it won't happened. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-China_policy

Or keep the "One China Policy", but switch which China that is. Oh, I see that's called the "One-China principle"... Good -- it sounds so similar, politicians the world over can start saying they stand by the One-China principle like they've always done, and most people won't even notice the difference.

That is how it was from 1949 to 1971 right? Didn't work out that well for China or the rest of the world, I don't think playing word games with the PRC is going to do much.

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#696

Post by seanmcdirmid »

vmception wrote: post #232
tamade wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's be clear, visas are handled separately because they are separate countries. Maps are just political theatre. The vintage ROC map you are referring to also includes Mongolia and parts of Russia (Chinese territories that Mao/CCP ceded), but no one in Taiwan is seriously making those claims. Note the CCP lays claim over the SCS based on an old 9-dashed map made by the ROC.

Look I’m saying I don’t have to care and its easy to conform without actually considering it bending the knee, because its hilarious . I get that the current head of state and majority party in the ROC doesnt extend its territorial claims beyond the island they are on. There are some people that hold on to the prior claims. The rest of us really need to just build additional pylons so we don't have any manufacturing…

Many Taiwanese would love to throw off the legacy of the ROC completely (territorial claims, claims on mainland China, etc...), but to do so would be an act of ultimate war as far the PRC is concerned.

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#697

Post by seanmcdirmid »

mountainb wrote: post #66
chongli wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure we can. It may hurt a lot at first but we'll get over it. Think about how hard it was to rebuild after WW2. This would be nowhere near that difficult since none of the west is a bombed-out ruin today and all of the west is made up of advanced economies with highly educated populations. Furthermore, there are developing countries (such as Vietnam) that are going full-steam-ahead with ramping up production, especi…

It's possible, but the US and much of the western world would have to tolerate a decade or so of severely diminished standard of living when judged by consumption standards. The country as a whole would also have to work a lot harder and for more years. In the past I would have said "there's no way that we would tolerate that," but for the last two years we have seen substantially diminished standard of living alread…

> A lot of the notions about Vietnamese hostility to China and Chinese business is out of date and becoming more out of date.

Note that the last major riot against China in Vietnam was way back in 2014. As long as China doesn't do anything aggressive in the SCS, the Vietnamese should come to like China again, however the chances of the former happening are very slim.

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#698

Post by CRConrad »

FooBarWidget wrote: post #526
stale2002 wrote: post #524

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> China can no longer afford to use empty threats And yet it keeps making them, and no actually doing anything about any of this. It has been decades of empty threats. I am sure people said the same thing, the last time more empty threats for made. Yeah, no. Thats the facts. They keep making empty threats, and not following through on them, and they are still doing that to this day. > more serious about true independ…

Of course they keep making them. They don't want bloodshed where it's not needed. But you seem to think that this trend can go on forever no matter what. That is a dangerous mistake. What's needed is deescalation, not more escalation in the faulty thinking that they will continue to do nothing no matter what happens.

> What's needed is deescalation

So go tell the fucking PRC to deescalate.

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#699

Post by CRConrad »

thesuperbigfrog wrote: post #293
sudosysgen wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China has a military strong enough to credibly take on the US, the UK, Australia and Japan in their backyard. That is because, as you'll note, these powers are all thousands and thousands of kilometers away from the theater, which gives China a massive advantage. The best they could realistically do if the invasion does succeed is try to force an embargo. This will be massively unpopular, kill tens of thousands in th…

>> these powers are all thousands and thousands of kilometers away from the theater, which gives China a massive advantage. The past 100 years of wars and military conflicts have shown that military logistics can overcome great distances if needed. Great distances and economic consequences did not stop past wars. I doubt they would stop a war caused by the invasion of Taiwan. >> This will be massively unpopular, kill…

> The past 100 years of wars and military conflicts have shown that military logistics can overcome great distances if needed.

> Great distances and economic consequences did not stop past wars.

Yeah, the wars of German invasion of North America -- sub-theaters of WW1 and WW2 -- were over so quickly hardly anyone even noticed them.

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#700

Post by CRConrad »

imiric wrote: post #261
mark_l_watson wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

+1 thanks for that, now that I think about this issue, that is the way I feel also. A few of my friends think I am overboard when I talk positively about China, but really I am just reacting to how wonderful the people there were when my wife and I travelled in China, and I also really respect their AI tech, their tech in general, and how so many people have moved out of poverty. It is just their current government t…

Governments are a reflection of the people. They're not some nebulous, abstract entity; they're literally made and run by people of each country. They're chosen–or in some cases imposed–to represent the people to the world. Even in dictatorships, it is the people that choose for governments to remain in power. When that stops being the case, governments are overthrown, and a new set of people take power. The people o…

> at least we can criticize bad US aspects (both government and cultural) openly,

Yup.

> without random US citizens coming up with defensive arguments.

Eh... No, usually not.

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