Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Why Bitcoin is worse than a Madoff-style Ponzi scheme

ft.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

111–120 of 133 posts

Re: Why Bitcoin is worse than a Madoff-style Ponzi scheme

#111

Post by elvatoloco123 »

Devasta wrote: post #37
elvatoloco123 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Crypto=/= Bitcoin Bitcoin offers a decentralized, supply capped alternative to central banking. If this seems useful to you, use it, if it doesn't, don't use it. Simple as that. Currently people find the ability to have unconfiscatable money attractive.

How do I opt out of the massive amounts of electronic waste and carbon emissions from Bitcoin?

Stop washing and drying your clothes. That uses more energy.

Bitcoin uses whatever energy is available. The answer is better laws

Re: Why Bitcoin is worse than a Madoff-style Ponzi scheme

#112

Post by yesbut »

CryptoPunk wrote: post #93
yesbut wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the CIA figured out how to extract passphrases from people's brains decades ago.

The government is going to start torturing thousands upon thousands of citizens to find out if they have secret passphrases?

Aren't we already being tortured?

Re: Why Bitcoin is worse than a Madoff-style Ponzi scheme

#113

Post by skohan »

ddorian43 wrote: post #80
skohan wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think crypto "investing" might be here to stay, for quite a while at least. Not that I think it should: it's a non-productive asset valued almost totally based on the greater fool theory, and there seem to be very credible indications that there may be large-scale price manipulation going on. But it appears to have managed to become entrenched in culture to the point that my non-tech-savvy colleagues talk about it…

> But to be fair, in some ways securities are quite disjoint from "true value" as well. If I buy a share in AAPL from another investor, the minuscule dividend and voting rights I acquire do very little to justify the price of the stock. I am really buying it in hopes that the market value will increase in time to make my retirement a bit more comfortable. Feel free to buy dividend stocks then. It's just that the grow…

That's true but it's adjacent to my argument. Would you argue that growth stocks offer some utility or intrinsic value which is substantially greater than that of cryptocurrency? It seems to me both asset classes are largely based on a greater fool theory. The only difference is that securities have been around much longer.

Re: Why Bitcoin is worse than a Madoff-style Ponzi scheme

#114

Post by ddorian43 »

skohan wrote: post #113
ddorian43 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But to be fair, in some ways securities are quite disjoint from "true value" as well. If I buy a share in AAPL from another investor, the minuscule dividend and voting rights I acquire do very little to justify the price of the stock. I am really buying it in hopes that the market value will increase in time to make my retirement a bit more comfortable. Feel free to buy dividend stocks then. It's just that the grow…

That's true but it's adjacent to my argument. Would you argue that growth stocks offer some utility or intrinsic value which is substantially greater than that of cryptocurrency? It seems to me both asset classes are largely based on a greater fool theory. The only difference is that securities have been around much longer.

Apple has 200B in cash that it can distribute still as a dividend.

Re: Why Bitcoin is worse than a Madoff-style Ponzi scheme

#116

Post by skohan »

ddorian43 wrote: post #114
skohan wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's true but it's adjacent to my argument. Would you argue that growth stocks offer some utility or intrinsic value which is substantially greater than that of cryptocurrency? It seems to me both asset classes are largely based on a greater fool theory. The only difference is that securities have been around much longer.

Apple has 200B in cash that it can distribute still as a dividend.

I believe you are missing the point

Re: Why Bitcoin is worse than a Madoff-style Ponzi scheme

#117

Post by Geee »

hiq wrote: post #102
johndevor wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine you're Turkish, Venezuelan, Argentinian, etc. BTC might be your best bet. Now guess which 1st world countries are next. Edit: as I think Naval said, crypto is insurance against politicians.

> Imagine you're Turkish, Venezuelan, Argentinian, etc. > BTC might be your best bet. I can sympathize with this idea, although if the US government just allowed Turkish people to open bank accounts in USD and transact with each other, they might do that instead. Many countries already use the USD as their de facto currency. > Now guess which 1st world countries are next. Why would they be next? I think it's rather t…

It's not beneficial to use money from another country. Managing your own monetary policy and being able to spend without limits is important tool for governments. Currencies are one tool which countries use to compete with each other. Those countries which use US dollar suffer from its inflation, but don't get the benefit of unlimited spending. In other words, inflation in Turkey would fund deficit spending in USA. Using US dollar would be better for the people, but their governments don't want to give up this power. That's why the local financial institutions place limitations on foreign currencies or outright make them illegal.

With Bitcoin, people can completely opt-out of this "inflation tax" without asking permission from their governments. Another option is to use stablecoins such as Tether USD, which seems to be gaining popularity as a currency in countries with high inflation. This is problematic because Tether gains the power of a central bank without any oversight. Bitcoin is the only currency which has very high guarantees of its expected monetary inflation, and that's why it would be the best choice for individuals.

Re: Why Bitcoin is worse than a Madoff-style Ponzi scheme

#118

Post by CryptoPunk »

yesbut wrote: post #112
CryptoPunk wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The government is going to start torturing thousands upon thousands of citizens to find out if they have secret passphrases?

Aren't we already being tortured?

How are we being tortured?

Re: Why Bitcoin is worse than a Madoff-style Ponzi scheme

#119

Post by hiq »

Geee wrote: post #117
hiq wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Imagine you're Turkish, Venezuelan, Argentinian, etc. > BTC might be your best bet. I can sympathize with this idea, although if the US government just allowed Turkish people to open bank accounts in USD and transact with each other, they might do that instead. Many countries already use the USD as their de facto currency. > Now guess which 1st world countries are next. Why would they be next? I think it's rather t…

It's not beneficial to use money from another country. Managing your own monetary policy and being able to spend without limits is important tool for governments. Currencies are one tool which countries use to compete with each other. Those countries which use US dollar suffer from its inflation, but don't get the benefit of unlimited spending. In other words, inflation in Turkey would fund deficit spending in USA. U…

> Managing your own monetary policy and being able to spend without limits is important tool for governments.

Sure, but we're talking about switching to BTC, which doesn't allow this either.

> Bitcoin is the only currency which has very high guarantees of its expected monetary inflation.

As somebody else pointed out in another thread, bitcoin is either a currency or an asset depending on who you talk to. You mention it is a currency, but it's hard to find it credible in this role given its volatility.

Given that its price is a function of supply and demand, but that we can't predict what the demand will be, which strong guarantees are you thinking about?

Re: Why Bitcoin is worse than a Madoff-style Ponzi scheme

#120

Post by hiq »

jonathan-adly wrote: post #107
hiq wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this comment is on point and related to your points: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29646492 I'm not familiar with Robinhood, but I think it's mostly about buying stocks. Blockchains won't help you do this, at least not in a decentralized manner. You'll be stuck buying tokens with no real connection to e.g. the US economy, until it's been approved legally. > Follow the logic of what's possible with the…

> I'm not familiar with Robinhood, but I think it's mostly about buying stocks. Nope. You missed the point. It's about a company (or centralized entity) being in control of your money. > Blockchains won't help you do this, at least not in a decentralized manner. You'll be stuck buying tokens Blockchains and tokens are non-sense words. Bitcoin is a protocol and a network, the first blockchain. It is an open-ledger tha…

> > I'm not familiar with Robinhood, but I think it's mostly about buying stocks.

> Nope. You missed the point. It's about a company (or centralized entity) being in control of your money.

Sorry, I meant that the company Robinhood is mostly about buying stocks.

I was trying to say that people used Robinhood because they wanted to buy some products that it was offering, such as stocks, but decentralized systems won't help prevent the situation you deplored. You could imagine having tokens representing stocks, but it'd just mean that a centralized entity issues them.

> Would recommend reading this: https://saifedean.com/thebitcoinstandard/

I just read chapter 9, I haven't seen arguments I hadn't read before. Any particular reason why you're recommending this book? What are the takeaways you hadn't seen elsewhere?

Just an anecdote, but I find it interesting that the foreword was written by Nassim Nicholas Taleb, who as of 2021 seems to have completely changed his mind about bitcoin and is now highly critical of it, to say the least.

Post reply on HN