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Germany is closing half of its reactors before the end of the year

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Re: Germany is closing half of its reactors before the end of the year

#52
post #36

I am afraid this thread is going to be heavy on strongly held opinions and very light on facts and figures. In a futile attempt to compensate, here is the history of gross electricity production in Germany [1]. And here is the electricity import/export statistics [2]. [1] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/Energymi... [2] https://www.bmwi.de/Redaktion/DE/Infografiken/Energie/stroma...

Interactive live charts can be found at https://energy-charts.info/?l=en

Direct link to charts: https://energy-charts.info/charts/power/chart.htm?l=en&c=DE&...

Re: Germany is closing half of its reactors before the end of the year

#54
The obvious reasons this is bad are that it increases German dependence on Russian oil and burning fossil fuels for energy. What are the arguments in favor of it, from the point of view of the German politicians and/or activists that are pushing for it? It has to be more thought out than "Nuclear bad". I'm just trying to understand.

Re: Germany is closing half of its reactors before the end of the year

#55

Please correct me if I'm wrong but my understanding is that nuclear doesn't ramp up/down very well either. Most nuclear plants use fission for the base load but gas or other fossil fuel generators for the variable part. Since in Germany green power in the form of solar/wind are even more variable, this makes Nuclear + Solar/Wind a bad combo. Wind and solar don't even make sense for Germany given their climate/geograp…

> Please correct me if I'm wrong but my understanding is that nuclear doesn't ramp up/down very well either.

Correct. Nuclear reactors can't be turned on/off quickly. They are suitable to handle the base load, in other words, but can't be used as peakers.

> Wind and solar don't even make sense for Germany given their climate/geography.

Uhm, respectfully, that is a load of nonsense. Cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renewable_energy_in_Germany

> Germany should ditch the green and use its amazing engineering to build better nuclear reactors, IMO.

Well, if they start that plan today, it may be done in 30 years. Which is way, way, way too late.

Imo, the more sensible path here is to keep the existing nuclear plants running, decommission the that awful lignite power generation asap, while building out energy storage capacity (grid scale batteries - there are many kinds of approaches, e.g. electrical batteries, reservoir storage and some seriously weird ones involving lots of blocks of concrete). That could be done in the space of a decade.

Any new nuclear plants would not even be out of the design stage in 10 years.

Re: Germany is closing half of its reactors before the end of the year

#56
post #4

This is insane to me. Nuclear is the best long-term option for ecologically-friendly energy generation. This is absolutely a bad move, and the coal industry has done a great job of demonizing nuclear power.

Unless there is a higher risk of war. Can you imagine if WWII had been a bit more technologically advanced, with bombing raids on nuclear reactors? Here’s a report on their vulnerability in a modern war. https://inis.iaea.org/collection/NCLCollectionStore/_Public/...

If WWII had nuclear technology in play, bombing raids on nuclear reactors would've been one of the smaller problems. Then again, if MAD had been around pre-WWII it may have never happened.

Re: Germany is closing half of its reactors before the end of the year

#57

The sentiment on HN on this topic has traditionally been negative, and comments that support the move get downvoted. The fear of nuclear energy is deeply rooted in Germany and cannot be simply ignored. The "Anti AKW" (anti nuclear power) movement was huge since the 80s, it predates the fear of global warming, and it was at the core of what became the Green party. And Merkel, who has a doctorate quantum chemistry, cam…

Does "Green" have the same set of meanings in Germany as in the US?

Gerhard Fritz Kurt Schröder . . . served as the chancellor of Germany from 1998 to 2005, during which his most important political initiative was Agenda 2010. As Chancellor, he led a coalition government of his Social Democratic Party of Germany and the Alliance 90/The Greens. . . . Schröder has been chairman of Russian energy company Rosneft since 2017.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerhard_Schr%C3%B6der

PJSC Rosneft Oil Company (Russian: Росне́фть, tr. Rosnéft', IPA: [ˌrosˈnʲeftʲ] stylized as ROSNEFT) is a Russian integrated energy company headquartered in Moscow. Rosneft specializes in the exploration, extraction, production, refining, transport, and sale of petroleum, natural gas, and petroleum products. The company is controlled by the Russian government through the Rosneftegaz holding company. Its name is a portmanteau of the Russian words Rossiyskaya neft (Russian: Российская нефть, lit. 'Russian oil').

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosneft

Re: Germany is closing half of its reactors before the end of the year

#58
post #4

This is insane to me. Nuclear is the best long-term option for ecologically-friendly energy generation. This is absolutely a bad move, and the coal industry has done a great job of demonizing nuclear power.

Well, Germany's wind was done without a thought about how to implement storage; it did not have to; it was a perfect egotistic game-theoretic play:

The EU energy market mandates that wind and solar production must be bought before everything else. What happens at the moment is France's nuclear reduces production when Germany's wind is over-producing; there is no energy storage at all.

So right now, on top of wind uselessly adding to max production capacity, it thrashes zero-CO2 nuclear-allocated capital's effectiveness. That's a form of capital theft.

And on top of that, Germany's huge coal baseline continues producing just as before:

https://app.electricitymap.org/zone/DE

Really, the EU rules should be changed so as to account for driveability in energy production.

Re: Germany is closing half of its reactors before the end of the year

#59

Please correct me if I'm wrong but my understanding is that nuclear doesn't ramp up/down very well either. Most nuclear plants use fission for the base load but gas or other fossil fuel generators for the variable part. Since in Germany green power in the form of solar/wind are even more variable, this makes Nuclear + Solar/Wind a bad combo. Wind and solar don't even make sense for Germany given their climate/geograp…

52% of Germany's energy production in 2021 was from renewables [1], which are productive now, don't need decades of planning and construction, have zero costs for waste and a perfectly clear risk profile for the next centuries. I don't see how wind and solar don't make sense. [1] https://www.destatis.de/EN/Press/2021/09/PE21_429_43312.html

> I don't see how wind and solar don't make sense.

Wind and solar make total sense. All we need to do is overbuild wind/solar generation + invest in energy storage capacity. This can be done relatively quickly, certainly much more quickly than building new nuclear plants.

Re: Germany is closing half of its reactors before the end of the year

#60
post #11

Here's a good article to give context about this decision and why Germans - who were affected by Chernobyl, btw - support this. https://www.cleanenergywire.org/factsheets/history-behind-ge...

> The nuclear catastrophe in Chernobyl (in today’s Ukraine) in April 1986 caused widespread fear of nuclear power and strengthened the anti-nuclear sentiment

That was a really unfortunate point in the history of our species. Not only because of the lives that were lost or the land that got irradiated, but that event will be indirectly responsible for countless deaths over decades. Not because of anything related to the radiation, but for putting the brakes on deployment of nuclear reactors. We could have safe and plentiful energy by now, with very little downside.

If that sounds ludicrous, consider this: imagine someone saw the wright flyer and said "we'll be using those things to transport millions of passengers at hundreds of miles per hour". That would sound insane as those things were dangerous. Not so much now (although we have paid a price).

Similarly, nuclear tech has advanced significantly. We have designs that cannot meltdown. We have designs that don't cause weapon proliferation. We can reprocess the 'waste'. We can use different types of fuels, some more plentiful than uranium. Instead, we are stuck operating old clunkers. There are still RBMK reactors in operation today (although they have been retrofitted, but still).

Chernobyl was a criminally flawed design one step above what the radioactive boy scout managed to build. That abomination should have never seen the light of the day - and if it did, it should have had a contention building.

If we were really worried about safety and health we should have a planetary-wide ban on coal plants. Not just for global warming, but for all the health issues they cause. Including radiation.

I am a huge fan of renewables (specially solar) and very hopeful on battery storage technologies. But we do have extremely power intensive processes (think aluminum plants) for which we need reliable power that's difficult to satisfy with renewables. Fusion is always 10 years away. Hydro is not available everywhere and can be disrupted as the climate changes.

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