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The Dreamcast Legacy

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Re: The Dreamcast Legacy

#61

Post by qqtt »

Comevius wrote: post #7
b15h0p wrote: post #2

The article states that the Dreamcast "fell out of the public eye as the Nintendo 64 was released". Am I missing something here? As far as I know the N64 was released more than two years before the Dreamcast's release. The Dreamcast always felt like it belonged to the PS2/Xbox/Gamecube console generation more than the PS1/N64 generation, although it was released in between generations. Release dates: * PlayStation 1:…

They confused it with Sega Saturn, that's the one that was pushed under the bus by Nintendo 64 in 1996. Nintendo however was late to the game, the PS1 was already entrenched.

That might be the case outside Japan, but the Sega Saturn was still relatively successful inside it's home country. Sega Saturn outsold the N64 in Japan. Saturn and Playstation were competing head to head for a while, with the Saturn frequently outselling the Playstation in Japan. The nail in the coffin was Final Fantasy 7 where Playstation took off like a rocketship and never looked back.

Re: The Dreamcast Legacy

#62

Post by kingcharles »

matthewfcarlson wrote: post #46
kingcharles wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the link. Microsoft really built XBox out of everything they learned from working with Sega on Dreamcast. Without Dreamcast there would be no XBox.

I remember going into someone’s office at microsoft after I first joined (back when everyone there had an office- it’s all open office now) and seeing a Dreamcast on someone’s shelf and being really confused. He explained he did most of the DirectX port for it and told me some of the details about working in it. It was a fascinating look into what might have been.

Microsoft went open plan?! I've not been on the campus in years. I always loved the little offices with everyone's past projects on the shelves.

Next you'll be telling me they got rid of all those free snacks and drinks.

Re: The Dreamcast Legacy

#63

Post by qqtt »

laumars wrote: post #50
ascagnel_ wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I remember right, the Saturn shipped shortly before the PlayStation, but it was more expensive ($400USD vs $300USD) and shipped in a manner that annoyed most retailers (it was initially exclusive to KB Toys, I believe). The article also didn't go into the add-ons released for the Genesis/Master System (the Sega32X and SegaCD among them), and how Sega's attempts at keeping the G/MS alive instead wore out many conso…

The 32x was released by Sega America and the Saturn by Sega Japan. The two groups couldn’t agree on much in that era.

It's easy to use 20/20 hindsight and say failures were a mistake, but at the time, Genesis was selling like bonkers in the USA and was a relative failure in Japan. Sega (both Japan + USA) had to balance the need to generate excitement for a new console in Japan while maintaining a happy Genesis install base in the USA. At the time, the best compromise seemed to be an early launch of Saturn in Japan while giving the USA market a stop-gap next generation experience to current Genesis owners.

The whole point of the 32x project was to help and excite the American market, and it was developed by Sega USA using Saturn components.

Yes, after the fact when it didn't work out, there was much finger pointing and blame games happening, but at the time, the strategy did not seem to ridiculous and there is a universe it could have worked. Sega invested heavily into the 32x to make it successful, including cannabalizing Saturn's only Sonic game to move it to the 32x (Chaotix).

Re: The Dreamcast Legacy

#64

Post by ThrowawayB7 »

kingcharles wrote: post #37
ChrisKnott wrote: post #30

The legacy of the Dreamcast was the Xbox, specifically online multiplayer (and massive controllers!). Peter Moore (who worked on both consoles) has talked about this several times over the years, e.g. this recent example [0] [0] from 7:40 https://youtu.be/tadtqchbbh0&t=460

Thanks for the link. Microsoft really built XBox out of everything they learned from working with Sega on Dreamcast. Without Dreamcast there would be no XBox.

> "Microsoft really built XBox out of everything they learned from working with Sega on Dreamcast."

People say this but I don't think it's really true or, if it is, it certainly wasn't apparent from the worm's eye view. As the Dreamcast was dying off, there were actually two rival console proposals within MS; one was from the Windows division (whatever it was called then) that became the Xbox and the other came from the Dreamcast team and was IIRC MIPS-based and, of course, ran Windows CE. (And we all know which one won.) Nor did it seem that the Xbox project had any particular interest in taking on ex-Dreamcast staff; of all the IC developers on the project, only one person successfully moved from the Dreamcast team to the Xbox team to the best of my recollection. (Remember that this era was the old Gates-led, cutthroat Microsoft where the internal competitiveness was just as high as external competitiveness. The Windows division and its leadership anecdotally was not happy about the existence of Windows CE.)

It remains a mystery to me to this day what expertise was supposedly transferred from the Dreamcast project to the Xbox project. Personally, I suspect it's a myth and the anecdotes by former executives are papering a happy face over a complicated history but, meh, what do I know?

Re: The Dreamcast Legacy

#65

Post by waffle_maniac »

There's a custom FPGA mod that allows you use to a usb drive to load games. I've been meaning to get around to that since eventually the GDROM drive fails. I just loved playing Dreamcast with friends.

* Dynamite Cop

* Unreal Tournament

* NBA2k2

* Army Men

Re: The Dreamcast Legacy

#66

Post by pmlamotte »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #24
themodelplumber wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Similar here, I picked up mine at a drugstore for $50 along with a pile of discounted games from the rack. I never thought I'd own the thing for 20 years and watch my oldest beat Sonic Adventure at age 6. Watching those credits roll he gave me the most badass look, lol. They still ask to play it from time to time.

Sonic Adventure holds up surprisingly well in spite of, or perhaps because of, it's surreal voice acting and general jank. Controversial opinion: it's better than Sonic Adventure 2[0], and Big the Cat's story was a nice change of pace. [0] Even more controversial opinion: Sonic '06 is also better than Sonic Adventure 2.

> [0] Even more controversial opinion: Sonic '06 is also better than Sonic Adventure 2.

Having never played either but having watched gameplay of both, I'm very interested in your thoughts on that.

I also agree that Sonic Adventure 1 holds up surprisingly well despite the jank. A lot of Dreamcast era games have a certain aesthetic to them that feels distinctly different from other games. Sega really had some wild ideas and while they didn't always hit they were still exciting because of how fresh and unique they felt. The lack of polish adds to that aesthetic; the games weren't following a cookie cutter formula like lots of modern open world games, they were spending their time really experimenting because designing for 3D and internet connectivity was still so new.

Re: The Dreamcast Legacy

#67

Post by xgkickt »

emodendroket wrote: post #32
b15h0p wrote: post #2

The article states that the Dreamcast "fell out of the public eye as the Nintendo 64 was released". Am I missing something here? As far as I know the N64 was released more than two years before the Dreamcast's release. The Dreamcast always felt like it belonged to the PS2/Xbox/Gamecube console generation more than the PS1/N64 generation, although it was released in between generations. Release dates: * PlayStation 1:…

It was absolutely the PS2 that tanked the Dreamcast. Perhaps the author meant Xbox.

Although the PlayStation 2 had the brute force, from this programmer's perspective the Dreamcast had a certain finesse, largely due to the PowerVR GPU. SEGA's teams were also on a strong creative streak at the time too. Such a shame it didn't pan out.

Re: The Dreamcast Legacy

#68

Post by agumonkey »

laumars wrote: post #52
dleslie wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They launched much earlier than expected, before really any meaningful library of games were available. Third party developers were taken completely by surprise by the early launch.

It didn’t help that the Saturn didn’t ship with an SDK and was painful to develop 3D titles on due to being a sprite based machine (3D was effectively transforming sprites. Which caused bugs like breaking alpha blending). The PlayStation wasn’t exactly easy by modern standards either but it was compared to that generation of consoles. For starters it had an SDK. Then there was the lack of storage constraints (unlike…

I think I've seen videos saying they somehow overengineered the hardware too, and without libs (as you mention) people struggled to make use of the many processors and couldn't reach goals.

Re: The Dreamcast Legacy

#69

Post by fredoralive »

aasasd wrote: post #41

PS2 emulation is such a pain that I still can't make any emuls work on my Mac. Meanwhile Flycast is being ported to PS Vita with decent FPS.

With the PS2 Sony were already some way down the road that led to the PS3 and Cell and all that complexity, what with the various vector units in the Emotion Engine CPU and slightly odd graphics pipeline. So its not surprising its somewhat hard to emulate, although as other post points out it should work nowadays.

The Dreamcast is somewhat simpler, a fairly straightforward CPU and an "off the shelf"[1] PowerVR chip that isn't as weird (though the tile based rendering stuff is I guess?). Cue emulator authors pointing out all the weird annoying bits of the Dreamcast I've missed.

[1] In itself an interesting choice for the late '90s, when consoles still nearly always had bespoke graphics, instead of just variants of PC GPUs.

Re: The Dreamcast Legacy

#70

Post by laumars »

agumonkey wrote: post #68
laumars wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It didn’t help that the Saturn didn’t ship with an SDK and was painful to develop 3D titles on due to being a sprite based machine (3D was effectively transforming sprites. Which caused bugs like breaking alpha blending). The PlayStation wasn’t exactly easy by modern standards either but it was compared to that generation of consoles. For starters it had an SDK. Then there was the lack of storage constraints (unlike…

I think I've seen videos saying they somehow overengineered the hardware too, and without libs (as you mention) people struggled to make use of the many processors and couldn't reach goals.

It wasn’t so much over engineered but more old before it’s time. Sega bet on 2D and then retrofitted their console to be 3D after rumours emerged that the PlayStation and N64 were 3D-focused systems.
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