Why Bitcoin is worse than a Madoff-style Ponzi scheme • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Bitcoin is worse than a Madoff-style Ponzi scheme

#11

Post by anovikov » Wed, Dec 22, 2021, 1:34 PM UTC

foxes wrote: post #3

Fresh in-pouring of victims to sustain the whole thing, while some bigger players benefit. Im sorry, I don't want to argue anymore with crypto advocates. There is no more rational discussion to possibly be had about any of the current contenders in this space. The whole thing needs to be pulled apart. Just because some people earn money from it, doesn't make it moral, a good idea , useful, or bettering human society.…

Well, if crypto is meant to be used as a method of investment, then sorry, nothing which does not generate rent can be a viable method of investment (can sometimes be a method of preserving wealth e.g. gold but even that barely). In this sense, i agree with you.

But crypto is also very useful for undermining governments - making them unnecessary. Which is a beneficial thing for all humankind. Whenever government realises it is not necessary and can be circumvented with no way to fight back - it becomes more flexible (example: legalisation of weed).

Crypto makes the world more free. Freedom is a universal value.

Re: Why Bitcoin is worse than a Madoff-style Ponzi scheme

#12

Post by fsflover » Wed, Dec 22, 2021, 1:35 PM UTC

foxes wrote: post #3

Fresh in-pouring of victims to sustain the whole thing, while some bigger players benefit. Im sorry, I don't want to argue anymore with crypto advocates. There is no more rational discussion to possibly be had about any of the current contenders in this space. The whole thing needs to be pulled apart. Just because some people earn money from it, doesn't make it moral, a good idea , useful, or bettering human society.…

Crypto helps people in semi-totalitarian regimes to not depend on inflation and be independent on the governments with transactions.

Re: Why Bitcoin is worse than a Madoff-style Ponzi scheme

#13

Post by jdub » Wed, Dec 22, 2021, 1:37 PM UTC

LatteLazy wrote: post #10

arbuge wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The comparison to oil isn't quite fair to oil. Oil has a lot of negative side effects, to be clear, but the benefits to society from the use of oil include pretty much all the things we depend on for modern civilization. That is why replacing oil with renewables is going to be such a challenge. When it comes to crypto, on the other hand, I think the challenge would be listing any real benefits to begin with.

I'm not sure whether crypto is a good or bad thing overall but there are plenty of good uses for it: * In countries with unstable currencies they are useful stores of value (Venezuela, Turkey and Zimbabwe right now). I was in Zim back in 2010 and visited someone's house. It was filled with petrol because he had been paid and had to spend the money before it lost its value so he bought what was available. Bitcoin woul…

Climate-destroying techno-libertarian accelerationists will hurt everyone.

Re: Why Bitcoin is worse than a Madoff-style Ponzi scheme

#14

Post by jmull » Wed, Dec 22, 2021, 1:37 PM UTC

LatteLazy wrote: post #10

arbuge wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The comparison to oil isn't quite fair to oil. Oil has a lot of negative side effects, to be clear, but the benefits to society from the use of oil include pretty much all the things we depend on for modern civilization. That is why replacing oil with renewables is going to be such a challenge. When it comes to crypto, on the other hand, I think the challenge would be listing any real benefits to begin with.

I'm not sure whether crypto is a good or bad thing overall but there are plenty of good uses for it: * In countries with unstable currencies they are useful stores of value (Venezuela, Turkey and Zimbabwe right now). I was in Zim back in 2010 and visited someone's house. It was filled with petrol because he had been paid and had to spend the money before it lost its value so he bought what was available. Bitcoin woul…

> we don't ban things because you or I don't see the point

We do see the point, though: to scam people out of money.

Re: Why Bitcoin is worse than a Madoff-style Ponzi scheme

#15

Post by helloworld11 » Wed, Dec 22, 2021, 1:37 PM UTC

foxes wrote: post #3

Fresh in-pouring of victims to sustain the whole thing, while some bigger players benefit. Im sorry, I don't want to argue anymore with crypto advocates. There is no more rational discussion to possibly be had about any of the current contenders in this space. The whole thing needs to be pulled apart. Just because some people earn money from it, doesn't make it moral, a good idea , useful, or bettering human society.…

Since you categorically state that "the whole thing needs to be pulled apart" and attribute all sorts of evils to what is essentially just an open cryptographic protocol that anyone can freely use or not use as they please, I'd say it's you who is more closely edging towards being unable to rationally discuss bitcoin. Many things can be arbitrarily defined as bad ideas without having to be banned and something doesn't need to "better human society" (according to your definition of how that's decided no less) in order to have legitimate reasons for existing.

Re: Why Bitcoin is worse than a Madoff-style Ponzi scheme

#16

Post by yosito » Wed, Dec 22, 2021, 1:38 PM UTC

LatteLazy wrote: post #10

arbuge wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The comparison to oil isn't quite fair to oil. Oil has a lot of negative side effects, to be clear, but the benefits to society from the use of oil include pretty much all the things we depend on for modern civilization. That is why replacing oil with renewables is going to be such a challenge. When it comes to crypto, on the other hand, I think the challenge would be listing any real benefits to begin with.

I'm not sure whether crypto is a good or bad thing overall but there are plenty of good uses for it: * In countries with unstable currencies they are useful stores of value (Venezuela, Turkey and Zimbabwe right now). I was in Zim back in 2010 and visited someone's house. It was filled with petrol because he had been paid and had to spend the money before it lost its value so he bought what was available. Bitcoin woul…

> In countries with unstable currencies they are useful stores of value (Venezuela, Turkey and Zimbabwe right now)

Also, Cuba and Argentina. While Bitcoin may be more accessible to people in these countries, they could also store value in USD, or other stable assets.

> By making online retail anonymous

I really don't understand the persistent myth that blockchains are anonymous.

Re: Why Bitcoin is worse than a Madoff-style Ponzi scheme

#17

Post by trabant00 » Wed, Dec 22, 2021, 1:39 PM UTC

My prediction: it will take years for this to pop in the absence of a general economic crysis. The crypto coins gave just struck the most anti tech circle of my friends. They are watching youtube videos of how to mine on mobile phones besides buying the most obscure coins they can find.

So it looks to me like there's plenty of potential "investors" out there who can sustain this thing for years to come.

Re: Why Bitcoin is worse than a Madoff-style Ponzi scheme

#18

Post by meragrin_ » Wed, Dec 22, 2021, 1:40 PM UTC

elvatoloco123 wrote: post #6

foxes wrote: post #3

Fresh in-pouring of victims to sustain the whole thing, while some bigger players benefit. Im sorry, I don't want to argue anymore with crypto advocates. There is no more rational discussion to possibly be had about any of the current contenders in this space. The whole thing needs to be pulled apart. Just because some people earn money from it, doesn't make it moral, a good idea , useful, or bettering human society.…

Crypto=/= Bitcoin Bitcoin offers a decentralized, supply capped alternative to central banking. If this seems useful to you, use it, if it doesn't, don't use it. Simple as that. Currently people find the ability to have unconfiscatable money attractive.

How is Bitcoin unconfiscatable? Just confiscate all wallets. If they are encrypted in some way, they would still be inaccessible to the person. If they can be recreated, the person can be monitored to determine how to recreate the wallet and then be drained.

Re: Why Bitcoin is worse than a Madoff-style Ponzi scheme

#19

Post by ddorian43 » Wed, Dec 22, 2021, 1:40 PM UTC

trabant00 wrote: post #17

My prediction: it will take years for this to pop in the absence of a general economic crysis. The crypto coins gave just struck the most anti tech circle of my friends. They are watching youtube videos of how to mine on mobile phones besides buying the most obscure coins they can find. So it looks to me like there's plenty of potential "investors" out there who can sustain this thing for years to come.

I think the same. Especially when you see in investing forums that many people are tilting 5% to crypto.

Re: Why Bitcoin is worse than a Madoff-style Ponzi scheme

#20

Post by Waterluvian » Wed, Dec 22, 2021, 1:41 PM UTC

The Bitcoin situation reminds me of one wing of current U.S. politics. It's a complete fraud that's been obvious to a lot of people for quite a while now. But countless people have become so married to it and have allowed it to become a core part of their identity that they're no-longer capable of seeing reality clearly.

It comes with all the same kinds of personalities too:

- The angry commenter who just wants you to know that _you're_ the idiot, not them

- The "just show me the facts then" perpetually recursive denier

- The few who manage to benefit from it and are amplified as a signal that _everyone_ will benefit

- The few at the top actually making all the money, funding the further manipulation of the weaker minds at the bottom

Yeah, it's all a Ponzi scheme. A cult. All that.