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A few words about that ten-million-dollar serial comma (2017)

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Re: A few words about that ten-million-dollar serial comma (2017)

#41

Post by closetohome »

zerocrates wrote: post #25
rootusrootus wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My other sensibilities include not putting two spaces at sentence end (among other things this shows that you’re most probably 40+) and writing PowerPoint slide titles in sentence case rather than title case. Yep, guilty on both counts, and over 40. I feel no particular inclination to change, either, since neither seems to be anything more than personal preference. Someone will always disagree, so I just stick to t…

The "two spaces" thing also complicated by the fact that in so many contexts the extra space is simply ignored, as browsers ignore additional whitespace by default and so much writing and reading takes place through a browser or some other thing rendering HTML these days. Of course you can do things like "pre" formatting or insertion of non-breaking spaces to force their rendering, but that's somewhat rare. I wonder…

I find this muddied even more by the shortcut for "start a new sentence" being a double space on mobile keyboards. Seems like a habit I'd pick up even if I'd learned to type on a phone.

Re: A few words about that ten-million-dollar serial comma (2017)

#42

Post by bcatanzaro »

The commas in the second Amendment and their meaning are probably worth Trillions of dollars. When you think of all the private arms and all the costs of gun violence in the US over the years which hinge on the individual right to bear arms, when punctuation in the second amendment can lead people to read the text as only holding a right to bear arms within a well-regulated Militia. Turns out that the commas weren’t even standardized and lots of differently punctuated versions were ratified by the different states.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Amendment_to_the_Unit...

Re: A few words about that ten-million-dollar serial comma (2017)

#43

Post by datavirtue »

sudobash1 wrote: post #9
Jun8 wrote: post #3

Ahh, one of my pet peeves! I like and use the Oxford comma in my emails but have observed am in the extreme minority on this one. Here’s an English SE question with some interesting answers: https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/412/should-i-put... . Here’s Another answer with great visual illustration of the strippers, JFK, and Stalin example: https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/172671/oxford-co... . M…

I wonder if programmers use the Oxford comma more than the general population. It just feels more consistent to me to have all items delineated with commas (or semicolon if items contain commas: http://sana.aalto.fi/awe/punctuation/semicolons/02.html ).

It definitely appeals the my sense of logic and clarity.

Re: A few words about that ten-million-dollar serial comma (2017)

#45

Post by robocat »

a4isms wrote: post #35
intrasight wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a fan of hyphens: "...oysters with a tomato sauce over rice, broccoli salad - and bread pudding ..."

I'm a big fan of em dashes, which—when used like this—signal a parenthetical remark.

Parentheses are way better than em-dashes for parenthetical remarks.

A set of parentheses make the syntax unambiguous.

An em-dash is “that multifaceted, all-purpose punctuation mark that can act as a parenthesis, comma, colon, semicolon or even quotation mark”.

Also I have spent too much time with computer languages, and I personally find the lack of spacing around the parenthetical em-dash to be an ugly syntax. Then again, I don’t closely adhere to the English rules of punctuation, because some of the standard rules make for ugly writing IMHO.

Mostly I try to avoid parenthetical statements because they are often a sign of lazy wishy-washy writing. I guess em-dashes are OK in novels where the text context usually makes the semantic meaning clear enough.

Edit: “The Chicago Manual as a style guide calls for no spacing before and after dashes. In British usage and in some style guides, spaced en dashes are used place of an em dash. Sometimes the space you see before and after the dash is actually a special character called a ‘hair space’ or a ‘thin space.’”. https://danieljtortora.com/blog/en-dashes-and-em-dashes-part...

Edit: “Most newspapers — and all that follow AP style — insert a space before and after the em dash.”. https://www.thepunctuationguide.com/em-dash.html

Edit: From C2: “U+2014 EM DASH is used to make a break—like this—in the flow of a sentence. (Some typographers prefer to use U+2013 EN DASH set off with spaces – like this – to make the same kind of break.) This kind of dash is commonly represented with a typewriter as a double-hyphen.”

Edit: Also see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dash#Em_dash

Re: A few words about that ten-million-dollar serial comma (2017)

#46

Post by [deleted] »

ohazi wrote: post #21
seanwilson wrote: post #7

> “The next day, I enjoyed pan-roasted oysters with a tomato sauce over rice, broccoli salad and bread pudding with chocolate sauce.” A comma after “broccoli salad” would have cleared the table before dessert. I think if you write a sentence that's highly dependent on the reader paying careful attention to where an easy-to-miss comma is, you assume all readers know what Oxford commas are, and the sentence generates a…

> “The next day, I enjoyed pan-roasted oysters with a tomato sauce over rice and broccoli salad, followed by bread pudding with chocolate sauce.” This just moves the ambiguity. Is the tomato sauce over rice, with a side of broccoli salad? Or is the sauce over [rice and broccoli salad]? In this case "rice and broccoli salad" doesn't really sound like a dish, but why the fuck wouldn't you just use a tiny piece of synta…

[deleted]

Re: A few words about that ten-million-dollar serial comma (2017)

#47

Post by robocat »

dangerboysteve wrote: post #37

And the $2M comma issue from Canada https://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/the-2-mil... And Rogers Won. http://www.slaw.ca/2007/08/22/rogers-wins-comma-contract-dis...

  Language buffs take note -- Page 7 of the contract states: The agreement "shall continue in force for a period of five years from the date it is made, and thereafter for successive five year terms, unless and until terminated by one year prior notice in writing by either party."
  Rogers' intent in 2002 was to lock into a long-term deal of at least five years. But when regulators with the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission (CRTC) parsed the wording, they reached another conclusion.
  The validity of the contract and the millions of dollars at stake all came down to one point -- the second comma in the sentence.
  Had it not been there, the right to cancel wouldn't have applied to the first five years of the contract and Rogers would be protected from the higher rates it now faces.
  "Based on the rules of punctuation," the comma in question "allows for the termination of the [contract]at any time, without cause, upon one-year's written notice," the regulator said.

Re: A few words about that ten-million-dollar serial comma (2017)

#48

Post by jandrese »

bcatanzaro wrote: post #42

The commas in the second Amendment and their meaning are probably worth Trillions of dollars. When you think of all the private arms and all the costs of gun violence in the US over the years which hinge on the individual right to bear arms, when punctuation in the second amendment can lead people to read the text as only holding a right to bear arms within a well-regulated Militia. Turns out that the commas weren’t…

I think that people would have interpreted that amendment the way they wanted to regardless of comma placement. They already blind themselves to the "well regulated militia" wording entirely, so ignoring an extra comma or two makes little difference.

Re: A few words about that ten-million-dollar serial comma (2017)

#49

Post by DangitBobby »

jandrese wrote: post #48
bcatanzaro wrote: post #42

The commas in the second Amendment and their meaning are probably worth Trillions of dollars. When you think of all the private arms and all the costs of gun violence in the US over the years which hinge on the individual right to bear arms, when punctuation in the second amendment can lead people to read the text as only holding a right to bear arms within a well-regulated Militia. Turns out that the commas weren’t…

I think that people would have interpreted that amendment the way they wanted to regardless of comma placement. They already blind themselves to the "well regulated militia" wording entirely, so ignoring an extra comma or two makes little difference.

Blind to and blinded by, depending on who you ask.

Re: A few words about that ten-million-dollar serial comma (2017)

#50

Post by Asooka »

jandrese wrote: post #48
bcatanzaro wrote: post #42

The commas in the second Amendment and their meaning are probably worth Trillions of dollars. When you think of all the private arms and all the costs of gun violence in the US over the years which hinge on the individual right to bear arms, when punctuation in the second amendment can lead people to read the text as only holding a right to bear arms within a well-regulated Militia. Turns out that the commas weren’t…

I think that people would have interpreted that amendment the way they wanted to regardless of comma placement. They already blind themselves to the "well regulated militia" wording entirely, so ignoring an extra comma or two makes little difference.

The meaning seems obvious. A well regulated militia is required for the security of a free state. Therefore, people's freedom to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. It declares an already existing freedom to keep and bear arms (as IIRC nothing on the federal level forbade it), and forbids its infringement by the state, with the goal of keeping the population familiar with the operation of firearms for the benefit of local militias.

Or read the longer explanation by the Cornell Law School https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution-conan/amendment-2/s... .

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