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How to turn in your tax-cheating neighbor

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Re: How to turn in your tax-cheating neighbor

#11

Post by wisty »

tzs wrote: post #8
waffle_ss wrote: post #6

Tax laws need to be much, much simpler. The more complicated they are, the easier it will be for people to sneak by without paying and for loopholes to exist. It's the same thing that happens when a program drifts away from triviality - the probability of bugs increases greatly. Make tax laws trivial, and most of these problems - and most of the need for the IRS - would go away.

Tax laws generally start out simple, then get complex patching holes. My favorite example. Once upon a time a long time ago, a company wanted to pay a dividend to shareholders. That would be taxed as ordinary income to the shareholders. The company's accountants had a brilliant idea. 1. Do a stock split. Say, 105 for 100. 2. Do a stock buyback, where the company buys back 1/21 of the outstanding shares. Net result to…

Why should income and capital gains be taxed differently anyway?

If it's to stop Grandma getting hit with a huge marginal tax when she sells her house (despite it being a once-off kind of thing), just introduce some kind of smoothing. If your income is uneven, the tax man can give concessions (if you get a lot of money after a period of low income), and rebates (if you have a low income period after making a lot of money).

Easy, right? No more need for tricky rules about how to move money between the different categories.

Re: How to turn in your tax-cheating neighbor

#12

Post by Astrohacker »

mchusma wrote: post #2

This might be the most terrifying program I have ever heard of. I am struggling to think of anything other than the potential consequences of this.

Agreed. I find it disturbing that other commenters in this thread would evidently use this program if they had a chance.

I can sense the downvotes already... but let me explain why this program is terrible. If I charged everyone a tax, and threatened people with violence if they didn't pay up, then everyone would recognize it was wrong. When government does it, the brainwashed masses think it's a good thing. But it is bad when the government taxes people just like it would be bad if I taxed people. It doesn't matter what the government does with the money (which is mostly wasted, but that's beside the point). It is still wrong.

To rat someone out who opts not to pay for the protection racket that is taxes is to participate in the crime of stealing their wealth. That is why this program is terrible. It converts ordinary citizens into criminals.

Government has one tool that legitimate organizations don't have: force. Because it is wrong to force people to do stuff, government is immoral. Government is therefore a criminal organization, like a scaled up version of the mafia. If these ideas appeal to you, I recommend reading the works of Murray Rothbard, in particular "For a New Liberty", but his books on economics will also set you on the right path.

Re: How to turn in your tax-cheating neighbor

#13

Post by shawnee_ »

waffle_ss wrote: post #6

Tax laws need to be much, much simpler. The more complicated they are, the easier it will be for people to sneak by without paying and for loopholes to exist. It's the same thing that happens when a program drifts away from triviality - the probability of bugs increases greatly. Make tax laws trivial, and most of these problems - and most of the need for the IRS - would go away.

Good analogy. Although I've mentioned this before here, it's relevant; the way the tax law was originally put into effect was very smart and not complicated at all. ($4000 in 1893 ~ $100K today)

(1) Zero tax on any person making under $4,000 per annum (2) Begin graduated tax rates on person making $4,000 or more per annum (with special attention paid to trustees and other persons whose income source is derived from estates) (3) All corporations with profit subject to tax

http://books.google.com/books?id=ogUNAAAAYAAJ&pg=PP1#v=o...

Very simple. If the original tax code were dropped into place today, it would be greatly simplified for most people.

However, I disagree that tax laws need to be simpler for high-income, high-volume franchises. Following the original program analogy, it's necessary to be very strict and put many layers of control around processes that have the ability / potential / likelihood to zombie.

I guess that's where we are today with the US tax code: zombie processes' wasting CPU (GDP) pretty much hijacked the whole system.

Re: How to turn in your tax-cheating neighbor

#14

Post by feydr »

knowtheory wrote: post #5
bradleyland wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Terrifying? Even if you're anti-tax, those to fail to pay taxes are a big part of the problem. What's the motivation to fight over-taxation if those who wish to opt-out can simply do so with little chance of consequence. I know of at least two business owners who are flat out stealing from the IRS and their employees. Both of them are more than three years behind on federal withholding tax payments. It's not even the…

I really don't understand why OP has his knickers in a twist. What're the potential consequences of falsely reporting someone? They get audited? The IRS already does random (but infrequent audits). Given the fact that the IRS would indeed have to investigate and then prosecute whatever fraud may be present, they would have to have a fairly solid and material understanding of the circumstances leading to tax dodging.…

Obviously you have never been through an 'audit' before, and last I checked, the IRS is very inhuman

Re: How to turn in your tax-cheating neighbor

#15

Post by robryan »

Astrohacker wrote: post #12
mchusma wrote: post #2

This might be the most terrifying program I have ever heard of. I am struggling to think of anything other than the potential consequences of this.

Agreed. I find it disturbing that other commenters in this thread would evidently use this program if they had a chance. I can sense the downvotes already... but let me explain why this program is terrible. If I charged everyone a tax, and threatened people with violence if they didn't pay up, then everyone would recognize it was wrong. When government does it, the brainwashed masses think it's a good thing. But it i…

How do you propose public services are paid for and law and order is maintained?

Re: How to turn in your tax-cheating neighbor

#16

Post by feydr »

bradleyland wrote: post #4
mchusma wrote: post #2

This might be the most terrifying program I have ever heard of. I am struggling to think of anything other than the potential consequences of this.

Terrifying? Even if you're anti-tax, those to fail to pay taxes are a big part of the problem. What's the motivation to fight over-taxation if those who wish to opt-out can simply do so with little chance of consequence. I know of at least two business owners who are flat out stealing from the IRS and their employees. Both of them are more than three years behind on federal withholding tax payments. It's not even the…

whooooahhh buddy -- did you just seriously have the audacity to use the phrase "other people's money" wrt to collecting taxes?? Seriously??

Re: How to turn in your tax-cheating neighbor

#18

Post by aschoen »

robryan wrote: post #15
Astrohacker wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. I find it disturbing that other commenters in this thread would evidently use this program if they had a chance. I can sense the downvotes already... but let me explain why this program is terrible. If I charged everyone a tax, and threatened people with violence if they didn't pay up, then everyone would recognize it was wrong. When government does it, the brainwashed masses think it's a good thing. But it i…

How do you propose public services are paid for and law and order is maintained?

Perhaps public services (including the legal system) could be funded by donations instead of tax money.

Re: How to turn in your tax-cheating neighbor

#19

Post by abduhl »

aschoen wrote: post #18
robryan wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you propose public services are paid for and law and order is maintained?

Perhaps public services (including the legal system) could be funded by donations instead of tax money.

Should everyone be allowed to use these public services when not everyone is donating? Should you be allowed to use the police even if you haven't been donating to their budget? What if the police have two calls: one from someone who has donated and one from someone who hasn't? Who has priority?

The tax system exists to fund services that are generally not used by someone until they are needed (FEMA, Medicare, unemployment, etc.). I can honestly say I would never pay into any of these programs unless I had to and I think most people would do the same (even if they wouldn't admit to it openly).

Re: How to turn in your tax-cheating neighbor

#20

Post by dmlorenzetti »

feydr wrote: post #16
bradleyland wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Terrifying? Even if you're anti-tax, those to fail to pay taxes are a big part of the problem. What's the motivation to fight over-taxation if those who wish to opt-out can simply do so with little chance of consequence. I know of at least two business owners who are flat out stealing from the IRS and their employees. Both of them are more than three years behind on federal withholding tax payments. It's not even the…

whooooahhh buddy -- did you just seriously have the audacity to use the phrase "other people's money" wrt to collecting taxes?? Seriously??

Since bradleyland stated It's not even their money! This is their employees' withholding tax., it appears the point was the malefactors withheld money from their employees, and then failed to pass it along to the feds.

Hence, if I read OP correctly, the money in question was taken from their employees.

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