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Tesla remotely unlocks Model 3 car, uses smart summon to help repo agent

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Re: Tesla remotely unlocks Model 3 car, uses smart summon to help repo agent

#321

Post by josephcsible »

Ajedi32 wrote: post #298
zionic wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you, but he same is true for physical keys. A car dealership can create a working key to steal/repossess your car in much the same way. We really need to move to strong crypto.

In my mind there's a significant difference between a dealership using their knowledge of the car to assist with repossession, and a manufacturer demonstrating that you never really had control of your own car in the first place. It just feels like a betrayal. Your car is loyal to the manufacturer, not to you. It will act in a manner directly opposed to your best interests as the owner if company that sold it to you…

We want things to be "loyal" to their owners. But the key point in this story is that if you don't pay for your car, then you're not the owner of it.

Re: Tesla remotely unlocks Model 3 car, uses smart summon to help repo agent

#322

Post by knorker »

rvz wrote: post #211
knorker wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't say there was no backdoor. Every locksmith in the world has the ability to bypass your lock (exaggeration). That doesn't make them the owner.

> I didn't say there was no backdoor. You didn't need to and given that was already avoided here; it now has been admitted. Thus, it is by definition a 'backdoor' then especially a directly 'remote' one. It doesn't matter who it is, we just know that Tesla and many others have this ability directly; no locksmith needed or whatever. So the future is connected cars where not even you can fully control your own car and…

Tesla owners like this backdoor ability. Indeed, some people consistently unlock their car with their phone (via the cloud), I hear.

In this case though some people are objecting to who the "owner" is. And I think that the people objecting are wrong. And (I assume) so does the law.

Your car is not protected from the bank or the government by its keys, but by the law.

Same as your house. If you lose your house legally, you'll lose your house physically.

The fact that the bank (indirectly) called Tesla instead of a locksmith is to me irrelevant in this case.

Now, in the abstract, is it uncomfortable that the car manufacturer can unlock your car? Sure. But we knew that they could. How else could your phone do it.

I hate to break it to you, but your telco can tap your phoneline. The bus can track your public transport movement. I can follow you on the street. Your power company can effectively track when you're away on vacation.

This case was not abuse. And it doesn't even have to be cloud-connected to enable this kind of owner-depriving abuse. As soon as cars got their first microchip they could have gotten firmware that would brick the car unless it went to an authorized dealer twice a year for "reset".

I'm not saying there aren't dangers, but this case isn't it.

Re: Tesla remotely unlocks Model 3 car, uses smart summon to help repo agent

#323

Post by sangnoir »

AtlasBarfed wrote: post #314
Ajedi32 wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my mind there's a significant difference between a dealership using their knowledge of the car to assist with repossession, and a manufacturer demonstrating that you never really had control of your own car in the first place. It just feels like a betrayal. Your car is loyal to the manufacturer, not to you. It will act in a manner directly opposed to your best interests as the owner if company that sold it to you…

As stated in other places here, if you have leased or financed your car, YOU DON'T OWN IT. You pay for the right to use it on a monthly basis. That is why there are legal contracts. This is just automated repossession.

> That is why there are legal contracts. This is just automated repossession.

There is value in adding friction to enforcing law/contracts: I don't know if FSD-repo crosses the line for me, but I know automating enforcement is bad for society.

What if everytime Tesla cameras detect the car speeding, or has crossed double-lines, it helpfully charges the fine to the linked credit card? After all, its just automated ticketing, right?

Re: Tesla remotely unlocks Model 3 car, uses smart summon to help repo agent

#324

Post by giobox »

dangerbird2 wrote: post #222
mikeryan wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US a financed car is “owned” by the bank until fully paid off - which most of the time is a subsidiary of the manufacturer. A lot of Teslas are also just leased.

It's not owned by the bank until you foreclose, after which it's most certainly owned by the bank. As an aside, how often is it for the manufacturer/dealer to own the bank that issues auto loans. I got mine from Capital One, and I assumed most auto loans outside of the sketchy loanshark used car dealers were issued by the big national banks

It used to be quite common; at various times in its history you can make the argument Ford sold cars at a loss to help Ford Credit sell profitable car loans. Even today, Ford Credit (loans/leases etc) is responsible for about 50% of Ford's annual profits:

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Motor_Credit_Company

There have been quite a few years Ford made more profit as a "bank" than they did from making and selling the cars. If you get a new Ford from a dealer and request finance/lease options, its pretty typical for Ford Credit to provide the backing.

Re: Tesla remotely unlocks Model 3 car, uses smart summon to help repo agent

#325

Post by Swenrekcah »

hunterb123 wrote: post #303
MomoXenosaga wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My problem is that when a driver hits a small child they go to jail. Are there any consequences for Tesla when they get it wrong? A small dent in share prices that day doesn't cut it for me.

Yes, if they were ruled at fault, just like any other company. If the operator was ruled at fault, they would receive consequences. Are you insinuating that Tesla operates on a higher level than the law and is receiving special privileges vs other automakers, or are you saying all automakers should be more accountable? What event are you pointing to they should be more accountable for? Or is this all just a vague hyp…

What if instead of hitting a child the car took control killed about 300 people? And what if it wasn’t in parking lot summons but regular driving assistance? And maybe it wasn’t a car but an airplane?

Are you sure there would be any material consequences for the board and leadership?

Re: Tesla remotely unlocks Model 3 car, uses smart summon to help repo agent

#326

Post by gonzoflip »

dangus wrote: post #311
gonzoflip wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah, I will continue to buy disconnected vehicles for as long as possible since I chose to live in a rural area of the country, and I expect my machine to start when I tell it to. People that live in Chicago or New York choose to give up their ability to travel without the need for the government that is their choice. And didn't the pandemic have a major impact on some public transit lines operation? Again I believe…

> I still want my vehicle to start regardless of the governments opinions on whether I should be traveling :) No government was involved here, just a private company, who has the freedom to do as they please with their property and the responsibility to protect their assets. > People that live in Chicago or New York choose to give up their ability to travel without the need for the government that is their choice. Wh…

OK, I don't want a private company to be able to have any control over the starting over my car either. I didn't say we should ban these cars, I originally said that I don't think people realize how much freedom and privacy they are giving up by owning them

>What you're implying here is that city dwellers are government-dependent babies, which is very condescending to them. Choosing to drive your car on the public roads of your suburb or rural town doesn't make you any less dependent on society or the government.

I am not implying anything, I am stating my opinion that the people that choose to live in those cities have decided to trade personal freedom and privacy for the luxuries that come from living in those cities. These are tradeoffs, I chose to build a home in rural America with the goal of trading luxuries for personal freedom and privacy, as well as a reduction in crime.

And I realize why the transit systems had cuts and why they shut down due to unrest, but that is some of the freedom those who live in major cities give up. I am not far from the Twin cities metro and I was able to get in my car and drive to Minneapolis the morning after the riots started to personally look at the damage.

I do have a well and septic system, every few years it has to be pumped, you are right about that. I never said I was not part of society, nor did I say that my lifestyle is not dependent on society's infrastructure. I choose to live on the end of the spectrum to reduce my reliance on others as much as possible because I have personally seen and learned first hand what government oppression and social unrest can do to dense communities.

AFAIK under US law Tesla is well within their rights to use their technology to repossess their cars if they want to, or enforce whatever restrictions they want on the use of their vehicles, but it won't be from me. I am not advocating for tesla to be stopped by the government, I am simply asking for people to think through the consequences of their purchases. I completely agree that tesla is free to do what they want as a corporation(within the current laws), and I am free to not buy their vehicles as a citizen, you are correct about that.

You can feel free to give up your freedoms in the name of public safety, and eventually I will be forced to as well, but I will continue to resist as long as possible. I very much enjoy the act of driving to the point of it being one of my hobbies, I am in no rush for the impending future of driving being a luxury for the rich. I distinctly remember the feeling of freedom I got when I got my driver's license at 16 and bought my first car, it was actually a pretty critical point in my life and allowed me much more autonomy, freedom, and responsibility than I had ever had before.

I just really think that your desire for federal laws for privacy protection are wishful thinking and quite unlikely to happen, hell our current president has actively tried to ban encryption without backdoors on a few occasions(actually indirectly causing pgp to be developed https://www.wired.com/2012/12/joe-biden-private-email/), this seems actively antiprivacy to me.

Re: Tesla remotely unlocks Model 3 car, uses smart summon to help repo agent

#328

Post by CrazyStat »

AtlasBarfed wrote: post #309
d0gsg0w00f wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The worst part about this for me is that the Costco parking lot is already a cluster without having to add in the "show off my car to my brother in law" game to the mix. I avoid Costco like the plague because the experience is always bad for my mental health. I'd rather pay a few extra bucks to avoid oblivious giant cart drivers, having to show multiple forms of ID , having my receipt validated before I can leave, ha…

I wouldn't disagree with your experience complaint, but Costco exists precisely because it doesn't care about the "shopping experience". If you go to Costco, you forgo the right to complain about the "shopping experience" because you are explicitly choosing something with a bad one in exchange for very cheap goods. Walmart and Target: slightly better experience, slightly more expensive. Supermarkets and Malls: better…

Odd, I've always considered Costco to have one of the best shopping experiences. Stuff on the shelves, I go find what I want and check out.

I generally hate supermarkets and malls. Annoying music, questionable `sales` pushed on aisle end caps and elsewhere, etc. Not the experience I'm after.

Re: Tesla remotely unlocks Model 3 car, uses smart summon to help repo agent

#329

Post by gonzoflip »

dangus wrote: post #311
gonzoflip wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah, I will continue to buy disconnected vehicles for as long as possible since I chose to live in a rural area of the country, and I expect my machine to start when I tell it to. People that live in Chicago or New York choose to give up their ability to travel without the need for the government that is their choice. And didn't the pandemic have a major impact on some public transit lines operation? Again I believe…

> I still want my vehicle to start regardless of the governments opinions on whether I should be traveling :) No government was involved here, just a private company, who has the freedom to do as they please with their property and the responsibility to protect their assets. > People that live in Chicago or New York choose to give up their ability to travel without the need for the government that is their choice. Wh…

We have different lifestyles, needs, and goals. I realize mine may be flawed but these are the opinions I have due to my personal experience. I am not trying to force anyone to share my lifestyle and I simply ask the same.

Re: Tesla remotely unlocks Model 3 car, uses smart summon to help repo agent

#330

Post by maxdo »

steelframe wrote: post #205
maxdo wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would I want so? I want to warm up/cool the car before i get into it, listen for the music without plugging my phone every time , have a decent gps that is free, notify me about traffic, tell me if the charging station i'm going to is busy, alert me if someone is breaking in into my car. Heck I can even check the camera's from my App so I don't need to run if this is false alarm. I can even say something to this…

For me it's about control. I'm fine with having whiz-bang features on my equipment, so long as I am the final authority on anything and everything about them. About a year ago I took my fancy EV on a ferry. I kept it on and ran the air conditioner because it was hot outside. Partway through the crossing I guess the suspension sensors interpreted the boat rocking as "something is seriously screwed up," and it locked t…

it's a problem of your car brand, not the EV's. My EV still has neutral. Let me guess, you probably choose a legacy brand EV car, that has no culture on how to buy electronics, because you know I can trust this brand better since they are so long on the market. The same automatic problem could be on the car with manual transmission nowadays. Since they all required emergency braking and many other items are mandatory e.g nothing to do with EV itself.
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