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Game theory article from a professional Starcraft player/caster.

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Re: Game theory article from a professional Starcraft player/caster.

#61

I just read all the comments because the author states that one program collects the maximum amount of stones, and another competitor's program figured out how to collect an additional stone. Does this not make sense to anyone else? Can someone please explain it to me?

My understanding was that the competitor's program collected a strategic number of stones N in such a way which forced the other program to be able to collect at most N-1 stones on its next turn. I'm not familiar with the rules of Mancala but I presume they allow for strategies such as this.

Re: Game theory article from a professional Starcraft player/caster.

#62

I just read all the comments because the author states that one program collects the maximum amount of stones, and another competitor's program figured out how to collect an additional stone. Does this not make sense to anyone else? Can someone please explain it to me?

There's a difference between collecting the maximum amount of stones and collecting more stones than the opponent. I suspect the winning program also tries to minimize the stones the opponent will be able to collect, thus preserving its marginal advantage.

Edit: Apparently colanderman beat me to it.

Re: Game theory article from a professional Starcraft player/caster.

#63
post #48
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there's a lesson here, its that strategy gamers might benefit from doing some reading. You have to play sc2 or similar games for years before that kind of advice becomes applicable (since there is so much basic skill to pick up before the game becomes that strategic), and by the time you know the game well enough to find the correct analogy to something written in The Art of War you've probably already discovered…

>You have to play sc2 or similar games for years before that kind of advice becomes applicable (since there is so much basic skill to pick up before the game becomes that strategic), and by the time you know the game well enough to find the correct analogy to something written in The Art of War you've probably already discovered it yourself. You seem to be saying that by the time they are playing at a level where gen…

    You seem to be saying that by the time they are 
    playing at a level where general strategic advice 
    becomes applicable, they'll already have learned 
    it. This is a little circular.
Can you point where the circularity comes in?

I said that by the time the advice that can be learned from reading TAOW becomes useful they would have already learned it from their "battle" experience.

What I am saying is that reading it in book form will at most provide an "aha - that's why this strategy I've been contemplating is good!" moment, rather than a new idea about how to play the game.

I've been playing sc2 on and off (mostly off) since it was released and am a diamond league player & most of the time the game is still more about paying attention and tactics rather than high level strategy for me.

And I am pretty sure I would have not have even got to this level were I not already a somewhat competent wc3 player.

Maybe if you play 10+ hours per week of sc2 every week since it came out you would not need years to master the game, but as a busy professional with little free time and many games I doubt you could ever reach that level in a matter of months without having played a lot of sc1/wc3 beforehand.

EDIT: take a look at http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Battle.net_Leagues#Lea... - 80% of players are at platinum league or less, where the game definitively requires more getting over basic tactics than high level strategy. I would bet you can win with a marine/zergling/zealot rush in almost every match in these leagues if you have sufficiently superior micro to your opponent.

Re: Game theory article from a professional Starcraft player/caster.

#64
post #18

Day9 hosted an event called The After Hours Gaming League in which eight tech companies will compete each other for charity. The event has just finished its first season with team Microsoft crushing everyone else. Zynga is the runner up and Google claimed third place. Games: http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ahgl Homepage: http://afterhoursgaming.tv/ There are a number of interesting game theory articles on…

Anybody want to start a YC or HN league?

=]

Re: Game theory article from a professional Starcraft player/caster.

#65
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's your Elo?

Suffice it to say that if this whole entrepreneurship thing doesn't work out, my odds of supporting myself through professional gaming are even worse than everyone else's.

Don't feel bad. I'm a cool 900.

Re: Game theory article from a professional Starcraft player/caster.

#66

The author stated, "Third, a good competitive game should test a player’s skills and minimize the element of chance or luck. Ideally, the probability of a weak player defeating a good player should be as close to zero as possible." Do you think this is always the case? I'm thinking about texas hold 'em, which has short-term variability but the stronger players win over the long run with a better strategy. Does chance…

This is a pretty common position amongst competitive gamers, but I disagree with it strongly.

I think that the issue is that people feel cheated if they are in the zone/on a perfect run, and have that pulled from under them by chance. However, I would contest that having some risk makes it more exciting.

Another likely issue is the fear that your tactics and your highly drilled skills might become less relevant if some elements of the game are based on chance/randomized. It essentially negates some of your time investment in the game. For myself, I think that it's more interesting to have to adapt your tactics to new situation. I also find the skills that a game involving chances emphasizes tend away from the repetitive and towards general strategy, for example: map knowledge becomes less important compared to scouting.

Re: Game theory article from a professional Starcraft player/caster.

#67
post #9

Sean "Day[9]" Plott (the author of the article) is probably the best analytical Starcraft II caster around. His "Day[9] Dailies" cover everything from the absolute fundamentals ("here's how you set up your hotkeys, here's how you keep your money low") to more advanced topics like build orders, expanding, tactics, and micro. He also throws in "Funday Mondays", where beginner and experienced players alike try to win wi…

Slightly unrelated but Day9 also had a really good daily on what it is to dedicate yourself to something for a very long time. Great bits and pieces for any entrepreneur and worth watching if you even know anything about starcraft: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJztfsXKcPQ Edit: 0:28:45 - On strategy and execution

I really enjoyed watching that, though not really from the standpoint of an entrepreneur. What I really took from that video was how important a support structure is. It sounds like he wouldn't have gone as far as he did without his brother and mother being behind him 100% for years. Every time he had a failure, there were people there to help him get past it and learn from it instead of getting discouraged. He gained this support structure by being so passionate about his game that he made his mother believe in him.

Re: Game theory article from a professional Starcraft player/caster.

#68

The new 4-5dan go-playing bots on kgs (zen19d, crazystone) use this strategy extensively. When they're ahead they play to consolidate their biggest weakness, and when they're behind they play more and more risky moves to try to come back. In the endgame the calculate the score exactly, and will play negative point value moves as long as they are ahead on the board. It makes for a really tough game, cause if you do ge…

Interesting. I don't really know much about basket ball. But I have noticed something similar. In the last seconds of the game, the loosing team will try riskier moves. (Forcing penalties and throwing from the three point line). It is like playing roulette.

Re: Game theory article from a professional Starcraft player/caster.

#69
post #54
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's almost certainly based on the author's experience in Harvey Mudd's CS 151 (Artificial Intelligence) course, in which developing a Mancala AI is a standard project.

I believe Day 9 did indeed get his masters this year from Harvey Mudd. (original article was written 4 years ago)

Harvey Mudd doesn't have a masters program -- I'm pretty sure he graduated in 2008. I lived across the hall from him at one point. :)

Re: Game theory article from a professional Starcraft player/caster.

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Slightly unrelated but Day9 also had a really good daily on what it is to dedicate yourself to something for a very long time. Great bits and pieces for any entrepreneur and worth watching if you even know anything about starcraft: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJztfsXKcPQ Edit: 0:28:45 - On strategy and execution

I really enjoyed watching that, though not really from the standpoint of an entrepreneur. What I really took from that video was how important a support structure is. It sounds like he wouldn't have gone as far as he did without his brother and mother being behind him 100% for years. Every time he had a failure, there were people there to help him get past it and learn from it instead of getting discouraged. He gaine…

> Every time he had a failure, there were people there to help him get past it and learn from it instead of getting discouraged.

> being so passionate about that he made believe in him

IMHO, this sounds like two pieces of sage advice for entrepreneurs already :)

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