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My parents collect cans for a living

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Re: My parents collect cans for a living

#181

Post by Retric »

monkeycantype wrote: post #101
eru wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a bit silly. Bottle deposit are there to incentivise some people to return them. They just need to be high enough to do that.

I disagree. If the amount is low enough that it only incentivises people that are desperate, you are at arms length hiring people at poverty wages. I agree that we seem to have such low expectations of our society, that wanting something better than that seems fanciful and foolish.

Wages become a market question. The more their worth the more people start looking for a limited supply. Suppose you could pick up a can every 6 seconds (including time to collect deposit) that’s 600 cans per hour at even 5c per can people would make 30$/hour which is solid pay. Except at that value people would go out if they could pickup a can every 12 seconds and make 15$/hour, down to whatever wages still motivate homeless people.

At a higher value say 25c/can picking up 1 can per minute is 15$/hour so again people would go out even if they weren’t collecting very many cans. Higher deposits should result in people doing a better job even if their not paid more.

Re: My parents collect cans for a living

#182

Post by Semaphor »

subpixel wrote: post #157
Semaphor wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same in Germany, there is also the "Pfand gehört daneben" (Deposit [bottles] belong next [to the trashcan]) campaign, often with bottle holder on the trash can. The whole deposit system is extremely convenient when you are drinking in the park or beach, where you usually don't want to bring all the bottles back again, but you'll get people coming by and ask if you have any deposit bottles to give to them.

Isn’t there a decline in deposit bottle usage in Germany? When I was a kid beer was delivered to your house by the crate and empties picked up. I was led to believe this has become less common, which would be regrettable bc it was elegantly efficient.

Deliveries, I don't know. But every sparkling water, beer bottle has deposit as have all (?) cans. So a decline would be kinda impossible unless people stop buying those.

Re: My parents collect cans for a living

#183

Post by Semaphor »

ls15 wrote: post #163
Semaphor wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same in Germany, there is also the "Pfand gehört daneben" (Deposit [bottles] belong next [to the trashcan]) campaign, often with bottle holder on the trash can. The whole deposit system is extremely convenient when you are drinking in the park or beach, where you usually don't want to bring all the bottles back again, but you'll get people coming by and ask if you have any deposit bottles to give to them.

> Same in Germany Too many stores refuse to take bottle types that they don't sell though. I am often left with one or two bottles that technically should be eligible, but I have to take them back with me. The Norwegian way seems more convenient for consumers.

I think from a certain size on, they have to take them back. I understand smaller stores not wanting/having to bother. But maybe I'm wrong, after all I almost exclusively buy from REWE, so it's never something I encounter personally.

Re: My parents collect cans for a living

#184

Post by _0ffh »

tobltobs wrote: post #159
carlmr wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only issue is that glass bottles are too cheap and heavy. They should at least have a 25 cent deposit as well. Right now no homeless person picks those up, because it's just not worth it. Even with 25 cents there would still be a disincentive due to the weight, but I also don't want to incentivize bottle makers to produce more plastic, for them to lower the price at the counter.

It is 25 cent for glas, plastic bottles or cans in Germany.

Nope, glass bottles are just 8 cents.

Re: My parents collect cans for a living

#185

Post by [deleted] »

monkeycantype wrote: post #101
eru wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a bit silly. Bottle deposit are there to incentivise some people to return them. They just need to be high enough to do that.

I disagree. If the amount is low enough that it only incentivises people that are desperate, you are at arms length hiring people at poverty wages. I agree that we seem to have such low expectations of our society, that wanting something better than that seems fanciful and foolish.

[deleted]

Re: My parents collect cans for a living

#186

Post by rndgermandude »

tobltobs wrote: post #159
carlmr wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only issue is that glass bottles are too cheap and heavy. They should at least have a 25 cent deposit as well. Right now no homeless person picks those up, because it's just not worth it. Even with 25 cents there would still be a disincentive due to the weight, but I also don't want to incentivize bottle makers to produce more plastic, for them to lower the price at the counter.

It is 25 cent for glas, plastic bottles or cans in Germany.

I really wish it was that easy, but it's not.

Single-use containers are 25 cents, indeed, but a lot of the stuff you will buy is multi-use, and there things vary. Multi-use plastic bottles and large glass bottles usually have a 15 cents deposit, and small beer glass bottles it is only 8 cents, unless they have a clip-lock (Flensburger e.g.) then it's 15 cents again. Vine bottles are extremely confusing, ranging from no deposit, to 2 or 3 cents, to 15 cents.

I saw a lot of bottle collector people skip glass bottles, in particular beer bottles. I live close to a minor league football (soccer) stadium that also hosts the local American Football team and various other events, and bottle collectors are a constant sight before, during and after the games and events. The two closest city tram stops are quite often still littered all over with multi-use beer bottles even days after, because bottle collectors do not like those things. Too heavy and bulky at only 8 cents. People "litter" deliberately, being told the bottle collector people will be happy and thankful for the easy collection...

If I remember correctly, this difference in deposit amount was justified by reasoning lower multi-use deposits compared to single-use deposits would drive the adoption of multi-use. I don't think it has done that much, not really. When single-use deposits became a thing, a lot of single-use containers vanished completely, but once the collection systems got established a lot of it just returned.

I personally would outlaw most types of single-use containers, especially for "cold" beverages, and actually make the deposits all the same amount. That would have a far better and greater impact than bickering about outlawing plastic straws, at the very least. And a glass beer bottle might be worth picking up if it's 25 cents you get for it instead of 8.

Re: My parents collect cans for a living

#187

Post by eru »

Retric wrote: post #181
monkeycantype wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. If the amount is low enough that it only incentivises people that are desperate, you are at arms length hiring people at poverty wages. I agree that we seem to have such low expectations of our society, that wanting something better than that seems fanciful and foolish.

Wages become a market question. The more their worth the more people start looking for a limited supply. Suppose you could pick up a can every 6 seconds (including time to collect deposit) that’s 600 cans per hour at even 5c per can people would make 30$/hour which is solid pay. Except at that value people would go out if they could pickup a can every 12 seconds and make 15$/hour, down to whatever wages still motivat…

Very nicely analysed!

That's basically the same reason why Uber can't give their drivers a raise, even if they wanted to. Unless they were barring new would-be drivers from joining.

Of course, that also means that they can't cut drivers' pay easily either. Especially with competition from eg Lyft.

Re: My parents collect cans for a living

#188

Post by _0ffh »

lillecarl wrote: post #140
runj__ wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about "respectful" for both parties. Bottle collectors trying to take/steal not yet empty bottles and cans has become more of a rule than an exception in parks in central Stockholm. I'm still very much in favour of container deposit but I'm growing really tired of forceful collecting.

The people you're referring to are likely not the same kind of people who collect bottles in other countries. My friend has this jokish ticks screaming out "Min pant"(roughly translates into "my cans) when we're a bit drunk, referring to this exact problem. It's inappropriate to go into further detail than to say he's not making fun of any Swedes. It's one of the downsides of free movement within the EU when you're a…

>"Min pant"(roughly translates into "my cans)

Sounds more like "my deposit" to me.

Re: My parents collect cans for a living

#189

Post by lillecarl »

_0ffh wrote: post #188
lillecarl wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The people you're referring to are likely not the same kind of people who collect bottles in other countries. My friend has this jokish ticks screaming out "Min pant"(roughly translates into "my cans) when we're a bit drunk, referring to this exact problem. It's inappropriate to go into further detail than to say he's not making fun of any Swedes. It's one of the downsides of free movement within the EU when you're a…

>"Min pant"(roughly translates into "my cans) Sounds more like "my deposit" to me.

Sure, I find it easier to translate English to Swedish than the other way around I guess.

Though they are referring to your soon to be recycled cans and bottles when semi-agressively trying to steal them from you.

Re: My parents collect cans for a living

#190

Post by rndgermandude »

lillecarl wrote: post #140
runj__ wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know about "respectful" for both parties. Bottle collectors trying to take/steal not yet empty bottles and cans has become more of a rule than an exception in parks in central Stockholm. I'm still very much in favour of container deposit but I'm growing really tired of forceful collecting.

The people you're referring to are likely not the same kind of people who collect bottles in other countries. My friend has this jokish ticks screaming out "Min pant"(roughly translates into "my cans) when we're a bit drunk, referring to this exact problem. It's inappropriate to go into further detail than to say he's not making fun of any Swedes. It's one of the downsides of free movement within the EU when you're a…

I see such behavior here in Germany sometimes, too. Like everywhere else in life, there are nice bottle collectors, and there are assholes.

One collector gave me a sticky, wet butt, because he snuck up behind us in a park, "stole" my half empty beer bottle I placed next to me, and then proceeded to empty it out right there. It was one of the very few times I had trouble controlling myself not to hit somebody... I managed to control myself in the end enough to avoid violence, but was still angry enough to call the cops on the guy. Cops told him to not show up in the park or surrounding parks for the rest of the day, and when they asked if I wanted to press charges (technically it was theft and damage of property), the collector waved a 20 Euro note for "cleaning costs", which I took instead. I felt that was punishment enough.

Then again, there is plenty of bottle collectors who are rather polite, and humbly ask if you're done with the bottle and if they can have it. And a lot of people also gather together their empty bottles in a pile when they see a collector approaching.

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