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Moderna booster increased neutralizing antibody levels against Omicron ~37-fold

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Re: Moderna booster increased neutralizing antibody levels against Omicron ~37-fold

#61
post #47
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> in terms of covid hospitalisations overwhelming our hospitals: i‘m optimistic as well that this might not happen at scale. I see no reason for this optimism. Every hospital that I know of in SE Michigan has been over capacity for several weeks. We have gotten regular emails from both hospital systems in Ann Arbor begging everyone to get vaccinated.

This is inaccurate https://www.michigan.gov/coronavirus/0,9753,7-406-98159-5236...

Most people don’t realize that hospitals typically run at 98%+ capacity in the winter in a pre-COVID environment. This maximizes their profitability and allows them to operate relatively at a loss for the rest of the year.

Re: Moderna booster increased neutralizing antibody levels against Omicron ~37-fold

#62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>Why do people keep saying this? Because the population on HN is not homogeneus and different regions in the world approach the flu vaccine differently? In some countries it's completely free and it's normal to get it every year, and even in some countries where it isn't, there's only a nominal cost and usually the employer covers it - so most people get the flu shot too. Not a big deal at all. >> they have always b…

>>Or would you rather that they stopped the development of vaccines completely and focused just on the treatment of symptoms? No, but surely it would be easier to produce an antiviral for home use that would alleviate the symptoms of Covid-19, rather than relying on the development of a vaccine, and then demanding almost universal uptake for it to work? Then we could have had vaccines for the sick, elderly, immunocom…

No post body was provided.

Re: Moderna booster increased neutralizing antibody levels against Omicron ~37-fold

#63
I only realised how serious a threat omicron was when I looked at the South African data recently and you can see how much of a impact it's had on deaths in a largely unvaccinated population.

Even if you just compare the case numbers in South Africa to the UK (where most are double or triple vaxed) you get a good idea of how well vaccines are working.

For example, in South Africa deaths have gone from about ~15 a day before omicron to ~30 a day since the variant was first identified, which is terrifying. And in South Africa they have around 20,000 new cases a day compared to about 80,000 in the UK -- imagine how much worse it would be in the UK right now if they weren't vaccinated.

Anyone still doubting the efficacy of triple vaccination in healthy populations really needs to look at the data. The South African health authorities are wrong, omicron is a serious threat to our health and if we must fire a few people to ensure another successful Pfizer vaccine rollout, then so be it.

Apologies for the sarcasm, but as some with COVID antibodies from a prior infection which I recovered from in about a day, I am genuinely getting frustrated by how much fear and pressure the government is pushing on me to get vaccinated every few months, when the data on how effective they are at managing the pandemic (even after several doses) seems completely inconclusive. Even if this booster did prevent infection by any substantial amount, are we sure we all need them? And further, are we sure the risk justifies governments and employers pushing them on us via the rollout of various mandates and health passports?

Re: Moderna booster increased neutralizing antibody levels against Omicron ~37-fold

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>Or would you rather that they stopped the development of vaccines completely and focused just on the treatment of symptoms? No, but surely it would be easier to produce an antiviral for home use that would alleviate the symptoms of Covid-19, rather than relying on the development of a vaccine, and then demanding almost universal uptake for it to work? Then we could have had vaccines for the sick, elderly, immunocom…

> surely it would be easier to produce an antiviral for home use that would alleviate the symptoms of Covid-19, rather than relying on the development of a vaccine What makes you think that? Honest question.

Vaccines are specific and usually take years to produce (this time being the exception), it was more of a question than a statement of fact because I genuinely don't know (hence the use of 'surely', it seems intuitive to me but I really can't say.)

Re: Moderna booster increased neutralizing antibody levels against Omicron ~37-fold

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Us sheep will put up with this one, if it’s the last one. Just this one last booster. Now if we tread into the 4th or 5th booster for the n-th variant, then that’s my breaking point and I will have to call out the shenanigans. Moderna’s revenue since 2016: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1107794/revenue-and-net-... These companies certainly don’t mind the state of things.

As an investor in Pfizer I really love it when there are new variants and we all need more vaccines. It’s more money for me. As a human being, I worry about the (currently unknown) long term effects on my health.

I applaud your ability to appropriately hedge your long term health risks with a short term financial gain to provide for your care in the event you have debilitating long term effects. Remember to cash out before the lawsuits hit.

Re: Moderna booster increased neutralizing antibody levels against Omicron ~37-fold

#66
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clinics routinely require staff and physicians to be vaccinated against the flu lest there be an exemption on file. Granted this article shared that the rate is low, it also surfaced mandates for healthcare: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3020194/

I have never heard of a population wide mandate for a flu vaccine however. And since 2004 the average effectiveness for the flu vaccine is about 40% so I guess if you are in a high risk group it might increase your survival a bit, but not enough effectiveness for a national mandate. The death rate of the flu is about 0.01% for all populations. I mean, would you get a surgery that had a 40% success rate if your chance…

You are basing your argument on population based statistics. Healthcare workers are an important, large, and uniquely at risk sub-population.

Should you rx chemo therapy this afternoon? Probably not… unless you have a known tumor. Radiating random people off the street is not a good idea—I fully agree!

Re: Moderna booster increased neutralizing antibody levels against Omicron ~37-fold

#67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don’t lose your job for not getting the flu vaccine. Again, it’s an unprecedented situation and I’ll accept the mandate for the three shots, but this has to have an end at some point.

Of course it ends, when the hospitals aren't a mess? Until then, we have to keep getting vaccines. It's clear that the wave after wave it's getting easier in the hospitals. Remember, that hospital systems in pretty much all countries has collapsed. They have to move surgeries and some patients are even afraid to go to hospitals at this point.

They stopped surgeries here (more or less), but it has nothing to do with any kind of shortage or lack of capacity.

Re: Moderna booster increased neutralizing antibody levels against Omicron ~37-fold

#68
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have never heard of a population wide mandate for a flu vaccine however. And since 2004 the average effectiveness for the flu vaccine is about 40% so I guess if you are in a high risk group it might increase your survival a bit, but not enough effectiveness for a national mandate. The death rate of the flu is about 0.01% for all populations. I mean, would you get a surgery that had a 40% success rate if your chance…

You are basing your argument on population based statistics. Healthcare workers are an important, large, and uniquely at risk sub-population. Should you rx chemo therapy this afternoon? Probably not… unless you have a known tumor. Radiating random people off the street is not a good idea—I fully agree!

Yes, which is why we should be only vaccinating "important, large, and uniquely at risk sub-population"s.

I do not mind mandates for vaccines for certain workers, but for young bartenders?

Re: Moderna booster increased neutralizing antibody levels against Omicron ~37-fold

#69
post #47
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> in terms of covid hospitalisations overwhelming our hospitals: i‘m optimistic as well that this might not happen at scale. I see no reason for this optimism. Every hospital that I know of in SE Michigan has been over capacity for several weeks. We have gotten regular emails from both hospital systems in Ann Arbor begging everyone to get vaccinated.

This is inaccurate https://www.michigan.gov/coronavirus/0,9753,7-406-98159-5236...

Above 75% is roughly considered to be high occupancy. Efficiency drops at that point for various reasons, such as the difficulty in moving patients between units due to a lack of beds. These numbers are also comprised of large regions of the state with multiple facilities, but the facilities still operate independently.

For adults, those regions of Michigan have the following ICU utilizations:

Region 1: 90%

Region 2N: 82%

Region 2S: 89%

Region 3: 94%

Region 5: 85%

Region 6: 87%

Region 7: 94%

Region 8: 72%

The NYT compiles per-hospital stats at [1], although the data is incomplete.

If Detroit were to not have beds available for patients, one option might be to transport patients as far away as Cleveland. There's a recent article discussing the situation at the Cleveland Clinic's 64 bed MICU [2].

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/us/covid-hospitals-...

[2] https://fox59.com/news/national-world/not-gonna-make-it-out-...

Re: Moderna booster increased neutralizing antibody levels against Omicron ~37-fold

#70
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s not how I read the abstract of this paper. Moderna: (2, 8) + (7, 11) extra cases per million Covid: (38, 41) (95% confidence intervals)

See figure 2. Double shot of Moderna has higher chance of myocarditis than covid does. They do add this to the conclusions of the paper, but they defocus it by talking about the populations as one large unbroken dataset. When looking at people under 40, the risks for myocarditis are higher amongst Moderna double shot patients than for covid infections.

Right, that’s fair, I was overreacting a bit because you left out the age qualifier.

For reference the under 40 stats are (4, 9) + (12, 16) extra events for moderna vs (7, 11) for infection

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