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Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

economist.com

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Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#481

Post by jgalt212 »

bradleybuda wrote: post #476
Pmop wrote: post #218

> packages(/containers) from PRC are delayed or cancelled, invoices are not being paid, we are losing business there I think the whole western world should stop playing games with the bully state that is PRC.

Bringing China into the world of global trade has lifted literally hundreds of millions of people out of abject poverty, and created a consumer surplus for billions of people in the developed world. I agree that China shouldn’t get a free pass to pull this schoolyard bully BS, but the economic consequences of “just cut them off” need to be factored in.

Fair enough, but draconian measures and their side effects (making many poor even poorer, and enriching Marc Rich) were pretty much universally espoused and employed against South Africa. Of course, China >> SA, but the per person human toll could be similar.

https://www.businessinsider.com/how-marc-rich-got-around-san...

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#482

Post by satronaut »

croes wrote: post #179
satronaut wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Source please? It sounds like the most mild of all the 99.97% survival rate variants of covid. If you don't want to get sick, then stay home, but don't tell me how to live my life

The recent study about Omicrons severity is from South Africa where 80% were already infected, so mild symptoms could just be because it's the second infection. The severity of Omicron as a first time infection is not researched enough.

How's that any different from any disease in the history of humanity? We "dont't" know (even though we know covid is harmless for the vast majority of people), so why risk the adverse effects of a shutdown again. Aren't you worried about the mental health of children, the women at risk of being shut in with a domestic abuser, or the resulting inflation disproportionately affecting low income people of color?

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#483

Post by whodunnit »

croes wrote: post #153
albeva wrote: post #54

I wish whole of EU would declare in unison support for Taiwan. Wonder if China would kick out every single EU nation embassy then?

They don't need to kick out their embassies, they just need to stop exports for a short period of time. A short stop because of the pandemic had hard consequences but it could be much worse. The west ignored the human rights situation at the beginning to get cheap labor, cheap resources and to ignore environmental issues and now the west can't simply stop without killing it's econonmy.

It’s economic addiction which, like any addiction, is painful to deal with, but it’ll only get worse if left untreated.

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#484

Post by abduhl »

whimsicalism wrote: post #456
abduhl wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re advocating for a position on China’s 2 child policy that, in America, would most certainly would be deemed unconstitutional under a disparate impact framework. I know we’re talking about China here, but most Western countries have recognized that you can target a subgroup without saying you’re targeting a subgroup. You’re basically arguing that the Holocaust would not be a genocide as long as Germany was unive…

So you are saying that having lots of children is intrinsic to being Uyghur? It's a Uyghur "characteristic"? The US law around this issue is in flux, see for instance [0], where policies that were neutrally applied but impacted people a specific religion were ruled constitutional. This specific case was later rendered moot by congressional action. Regardless, is the claim that China is conducting a genocide, or that…

US common law like disparate impact is always in flux - it’s common law. The minutiae of disparate impact edge cases is irrelevant under your argument where the universal application of the 2 child policy somehow requires China to round up, sequester in internment camps, and ultimately sterilize a particular group.

I won’t bother replying to the rest of your post about religious beliefs and children because it’s an attempt to derail the conversation by focusing on details that are relevant only to the particular framing you’re advancing.

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#485

Post by mrtweetyhack »

bradleybuda wrote: post #476
Pmop wrote: post #218

> packages(/containers) from PRC are delayed or cancelled, invoices are not being paid, we are losing business there I think the whole western world should stop playing games with the bully state that is PRC.

Bringing China into the world of global trade has lifted literally hundreds of millions of people out of abject poverty, and created a consumer surplus for billions of people in the developed world. I agree that China shouldn’t get a free pass to pull this schoolyard bully BS, but the economic consequences of “just cut them off” need to be factored in.

you mean hundres of millions of Chinese? That's their problem

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#486

Post by pphysch »

eunos wrote: post #464
pphysch wrote: post #241

1. Beijing rejects being merely the "workshop" of the unipolar world, embraces sovereignty (GFW), high quality development (HSR), technological innovation (4IR), including in the military space (space, cyber, hypersonics). Oh and BRI. 2. Washington doesn't like that because it will displace the unipolar moment. USA has been in economic decline for half a century while PRC has been on a dramatic rise. Washington tries…

It's not really decline but relative decline, otherwise the rest of statements stand. The most amusing thing is that people forgot that US threw the firebrand Taiwan independence advocate Chen-sui Bian under the bus.

USA has absolutely been in economic decline since the 70s. Which was okay because USD is the global reserve currency and Washington can just print USD to buy things and offset the declines in productivity/etc.

However, once the USD loses global reserve status, USA is in extreme economic trouble. In 2021 alone, it will have over $1T trade deficit in goods.

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#487

Post by qwytw »

trasz wrote: post #426
baybal2 wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hsi Chinping bought his degree paper from a ghostwriter, and barely showed for classes. A practice deemed "almost" acceptable in the mainland among elites. People tell "for somebody already so high rank, merely buying a university degree is not really cheating" I once had an argument over this 9 years ago with Chinese peers. The conversation came to "Maybe, if he was given a degree, and job even without a ghostwriter…

So your claim is that Xi is only barely better educated than every republican US president since the nineties?

TIL that George Bush is "the only U.S. president to have earned an MBA", I'm not sure if that's better or worse than purchasing a BSc in Chemistry, though.

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#488

Post by krisoft »

whimsicalism wrote: post #412
scottLobster wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What-aboutisms and calling people jingoist. Who exactly do you think you're convincing other than yourself? Point me to the last time the US used its navy to directly threaten merchant shipping.

I am not making a whataboutism claim. I am merely trying to figure out what our standard for "bullying" behavior is. If the standard for "bullying" behavior happens to also apply to the US and is the impetus for why Lithuana evacuated its embassy, then I would suggest they should evacuate their US embassy as well. If there is a reason why Lithuania hasn't evacuated their US embassy, then I am just seeking to figure o…

> If there is a reason why Lithuania hasn't evacuated their US embassy, …

That is a simple one. The US is not hurting Lithuania the same way China is hurting Lithuania. This is the reason why Lithuania evacuated their Chinese embassy and not their US embassy.

Your question seems to imply that Lithuania drawn a big tally of the Chinese “moral failings” in general and decided to withdraw. This is not what happened.

Lithuania allowed Taiwan to open an embassy in their country. In response, the PRC recalled its ambassador in Vilnius, Shen Zhifei, and demanded that Lithuania recall its ambassador in Beijing, Diana Mickevičienė.

Following this Lithuania experienced a trade distruption. Shipments to and from Lithuania didn’t clear Chinese customs and invoices went unpaid. It goes as far that assemblies containing Lithuanian parts get blocked by the Chinese.

This is not rhetoric. This is not some feel-good measure to communicate displeasure with China in an abstract. This is a trade war.

Now I ask: is the US doing anything like this to Lithuania right now?

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#489

Post by whimsicalism »

qwytw wrote: post #467
whimsicalism wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1. There's also such a thing as cultural genocide, 1. Yes, referring to "cultural genocide" as "genocide" is genocide trivialization. There's an obvious difference between killing 6 million people because of their ethnic background and outlawing a practice (say, child marriage in India or wearing a burqa in France) that happens to be a large part of a certain culture. 2. You're conflating a few different things I'm…

You're trivializing "cultural genocide" by comparing it to child marriage bans in India or Burqa bans in France. Cultural genocide is not just banning random specific practices, the near complete eradication of local languages or cultures by the French state throughout the 19th and 20th centuries is a better example or what the British did in Ireland. And if "cultural genocide" is not the appropriate name for that wh…

1. I think it is up for debate what the way France treats ethnic and religious minorities, and their extreme focus on eliminating any sense of cultural difference from the public sphere constitutes.

2. I am not saying that "cultural genocide" is not the appropriate term. Honestly, it probably is. I'm merely saying that "genocide" is not the appropriate term for a "cultural genocide."

The purpose in referring to the repression of the Uyghur's as a "genocide" without qualifiers is to try to take some of the distaste people feel for mass killings and apply it to this.

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#490

Post by 14 »

yeetman21 wrote: post #87
14 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the truth the way I see it. I don’t care if I have to go back to coming over a wood stove with a stick if it meant stopping China. The only area of concern I do see is they provide a lot of pharmaceutical with the chemicals they need and they would not be able to produce the drugs they currently make. As for the rest, I’ve lived without a cell phone for decades I would love to go back to suck a time. Is there…

You might be content with living like a pre-industrial peasant but how many other Americans or Europeans would be? I would wager very few. People care about their own immediate needs (or what they perceive to be their immediate needs) first and things like China, HK, Taiwan do not even register in their minds. I would bet that most Americans would rather live in a vassal nation than to not have any of the convinces o…

I do agree with much you write, I don't think many care as long as their status quo stays the same. I have not drank any Kool-Aid I just find it hard to watch the suffering in China. The changes needed would effect the people at the bottom the most as it would be too expensive to live if the cost of everything went up 25%. I don't know the final answer but I don't think we can turn a blind eye to China's human rights violations forever.
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