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Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

economist.com

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Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#391

Post by spaced-out »

ww_wpg wrote: post #202
bettysdiagnose wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought the Chinese bullying of Australia has been largely recognised as a failure. Australia just exported to elsewhere (e.g. a lot more coal to India). If China invades Taiwan then most likely the USA goes to war over it. Anything else is to accept the final end of US leadership in the world. If we're going to end the world and kill billions then I guess it might as well be over something as honourable as Taiwane…

"what should we have done then, when the Chinese invaded Taiwan?" "anything at all besides what you did" - On the Beach (2000)

We've seen what happens when authoritarian governments which start locking minorities up in concentration camps progress to inventing historical grievances to start seizing territory. Appeasement doesn't work.

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#392

Post by dnautics »

Aperocky wrote: post #379
dnautics wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Australia has been largely recognised as a failure. Australia just exported to elsewhere Not only that, but the loss of coal imports from Australia led directly to massive power outages in the northeastern provinces this fall. Though it's possible that the people aren't aware of that causal connection. > Anything else is to accept the final end of US leadership in the world There is some sense in which the US is wi…

> Not only that, but the loss of coal imports from Australia led directly to massive power outages in the northeastern provinces this fall. This myth has been repeated so many times, how about: https://www.worldometers.info/coal/coal-production-by-countr... The outage was caused by misguiding policy incentive (clean air etc), which was seen as a huge blunder, rightfully so, but it had nothing to do with Australian co…

Reuters claims that Australia used to be the #2 foreign supplier of thermal coal behind Mongolia.

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#393

Post by manuelabeledo »

pphysch wrote: post #377
manuelabeledo wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Korean and Vietnam wars had nothing to do with China, but the USSR. Other than that, China was the clear aggressor in most of the conflicts you mention. China invaded Tibet with the excuse of “liberating” their people, which is essentially what the US has claimed to justify most of their foreign interventions. The CCP violently squashed the Tiananmen protests. China keeps claiming authority over large areas of th…

> The Korean and Vietnam wars had nothing to do with China, but the USSR. Frankly, this makes me want to stop reading right here. This is an outrageously ignorant comment. PLA participated in both wars, which bordered China, and backed the Northern factions. USSR did neither. But don't take my word for it. SecDef McNamara to LBJ: "1. US strategy. The February decision to bomb North Vietnam and the July approval of Ph…

Containing China by deploying troops is one thing. The US did deploy troops all over the world to contain advancement of countries under the USSR influence, or simply “communist” countries or governments, during that time.

Starting a full on proxy war in Vietnam during the Cold War era is a completely different issue. Same goes for Korea.

China wasn’t that big of a threat to the US. Pretending that it was, and that it was at the same level of the USSR, is ridiculous and close to historic revisionism at this point.

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#394

Post by lumost »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #360
forty wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm French, I hope we (France, EU) follow your lead.

No. France's traditional stance is more independent non-aligned and it is in France's interest to maintain decent working relations with all sides. France was the first Western country to recognise the PRC, for instance. This was realpolitik and hopefully that will continue. Before every action we need to ask yourself what we want to achieve and whether that is actually achievable. This requires knowledge of other co…

Participating in trade with the PRC requires action to support the PRC through domestic censorship and diplomatic support on issues the PRC cares about (Taiwan).

France has a choice in whether they choose to support the PRC or not - this requires stepping on red lines and facing the consequences.

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#395

Post by neom »

whimsicalism wrote: post #387
neom wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd encourage you to study up more on the literature and definitions around cultural genocide. You're conflating nuances in subjects. Anyone discussing the subject seriously is typically focusing on one group, usually non-native to an area forcing cultural change on another group for the purposes of, compliance, curbing, minimizing or destroying, the group. See events such as Uyghurs in China, Natives in Canada, Darf…

> need to be discussed equally, No, they absolutely should not be discussed equally. Darfur was an actual genocide, ie. a killing fields genocide. Native Americans were also killed at high rates, the "cultural genocide" came later. Equating the killing of millions of people from a certain ethnic group with prohibiting certain practices (like France prohibiting the burqa or public expression of religion, like attempts…

Well it's wrong in your book, but it's not in mine, so where does that leave us? Reasonable people cannot disagree? I'm a dimwitted plebeian? Shall we reach for the white gloves?

Last I checked, folks were welcomed to their perspectives around here, we don't typically just go around telling people their opinions are "wrong".

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#396

Post by stirfish »

toomim wrote: post #388
neom wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cultural Genocide is certainly a thing: The concept of cultural genocide : an international law perspective https://cadmus.eui.eu/handle/1814/43864 https://www.getty.edu/publications/occasional-papers-2/2/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_genocide

"Cultural genocide" should be called "memocide". At the point that you are only using the word "gene" metaphorically, it's time to switch to the word that already exists for that purpose: the "meme".

But meme already means something culturally, and we don't want people saying that genocide is a "meme"

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#397

Post by mthoms »

sudosysgen wrote: post #186
jessaustin wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a mainlander, Taiwan _is_ a region of China, think of it as Hawai for the US. Where I live in the Midwest USA, nobody would care if Hawai'i claimed its independence in some not-harmful-to-tourists-nor-threatening-to-military-fuel-depots fashion. That doesn't mean it would be easy. Much as was seen in the original USA annexation of Hawai'i, it is very common for interested parties to create violence where none nat…

The issue is that Taiwan is military necessary. If the US is allowed an outpost there they will use the encirclement to threaten China's security.

That’s a pretty bold statement. When has the US ever threatened China’s internal security?

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#398

Post by whimsicalism »

scottLobster wrote: post #371
whimsicalism wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's recenter the definition of genocide. From google: > the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group Now to your points: > religious conversion 1. No, forced religious conversion is not genocide in my book. > Forced sterilization 2. Look, I'm not a fan of this law either, but sterilization in-lieu-of fine is one of the re…

1. There's also such a thing as cultural genocide, which forced religious conversion certainly qualifies as. Not to mention wiping out a culture is part of an overall genocide, usually it's the objective. 2. Oh, so the Chinese are just enforcing their population control law? Then what are the internment camps for? And why the Uighur birth rate plummeting far faster than the reported national Chinese birthrate? https:…

> 1. There's also such a thing as cultural genocide,

1. Yes, referring to "cultural genocide" as "genocide" is genocide trivialization. There's an obvious difference between killing 6 million people because of their ethnic background and outlawing a practice (say, child marriage in India or wearing a burqa in France) that happens to be a large part of a certain culture.

2. You're conflating a few different things I'm saying. The internment camps are for alleged violations of a lot of extremely broad and bullshit laws designed to target Uyghur people, as well as for violations of China's two-child law. I am not claiming that the internment camps are just for people violating China's two child law.

Your chart indicates that Uyghur birth rates are roughly the same as Han Chinese, not that they are being disproportionately suppressed below Han Chinese.

> 3. The UN apparently does. Note that said treatments are apparently disproportionately targeted at various ethnic minorities. https://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?N...

I'll defer to them then. If they've been doing it against Falun Gong in the recent past, I wouldn't put it past them to be doing it to the Uyghurs. That is obviously a crime against humanity. It is scary that we probably won't know the true extent of this for decades at least.

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#399

Post by neom »

toomim wrote: post #388
neom wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cultural Genocide is certainly a thing: The concept of cultural genocide : an international law perspective https://cadmus.eui.eu/handle/1814/43864 https://www.getty.edu/publications/occasional-papers-2/2/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_genocide

"Cultural genocide" should be called "memocide". At the point that you are only using the word "gene" metaphorically, it's time to switch to the word that already exists for that purpose: the "meme".

Why is gene metaphorical here? Are people not a result of external stimuli? My understanding is that gene variants are involved in evolution often caused by extrinsic factors?

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#400

Post by d3vmax »

whimsicalism wrote: post #313
riffraff wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China won't allow airlines to say they fly to Taiwan. Western media frequently defer to PRC rules (the latest one: Top Gun sequel removing the taiwanese flag). John Cena had to publicly apologize because he referred to Taiwan as a country. Chinese vessels regularly violate territorial waters, and there is an ongoing spat with India around their borders. The PRC is bullying the whole planet, and people are letting the…

> Chinese vessels regularly violate territorial waters, and there is an ongoing spat with India around their borders. If you are talking about India's spat with China in terms of territorial waters, I think the general consensus is that India is in excess of international law with its claims and China is conducting legal freedom of navigation operations just like the US does. The SCS is an entirely different issue, w…

PRC Shill here!
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