Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China • Hacker News Board

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#371

Post by scottLobster » Sun, Dec 19, 2021, 5:39 PM UTC

whimsicalism wrote: post #338

scottLobster wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forced sterilization and religious conversion (not to mention the occasional organ harvesting) isn't genocide?

Let's recenter the definition of genocide. From google: > the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group Now to your points: > religious conversion 1. No, forced religious conversion is not genocide in my book. > Forced sterilization 2. Look, I'm not a fan of this law either, but sterilization in-lieu-of fine is one of the re…

1. There's also such a thing as cultural genocide, which forced religious conversion certainly qualifies as. Not to mention wiping out a culture is part of an overall genocide, usually it's the objective.

2. Oh, so the Chinese are just enforcing their population control law? Then what are the internment camps for? And why the Uighur birth rate plummeting far faster than the reported national Chinese birthrate? https://apnews.com/article/ap-top-news-international-news-we...

"Birth rates in the mostly Uighur regions of Hotan and Kashgar plunged by more than 60% from 2015 to 2018, the latest year available in government statistics. Across the Xinjiang region, birth rates continue to plummet, falling nearly 24% last year alone — compared to just 4.2% nationwide, statistics show."

3. The UN apparently does. Note that said treatments are apparently disproportionately targeted at various ethnic minorities. https://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?N...

"UN human rights experts* said today they were extremely alarmed by reports of alleged ‘organ harvesting’ targeting minorities, including Falun Gong practitioners, Uyghurs, Tibetans, Muslims and Christians, in detention in China

The experts said they have received credible information that detainees from ethnic, linguistic or religious minorities may be forcibly subjected to blood tests and organ examinations such as ultrasound and x-rays, without their informed consent; while other prisoners are not required to undergo such examinations. The results of the examinations are reportedly registered in a database of living organ sources that facilitates organ allocation."

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#372

Post by BrazzVuvuzela » Sun, Dec 19, 2021, 5:40 PM UTC

sudosysgen wrote: post #344

BrazzVuvuzela wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Of course the West would still try to dispute it Yeah, that's what I just said. > the world saw through WMDs in Iraq And Iraq got bombed anyway, it's a great example of how the actual validity of a casus belli doesn't matter.

>Yeah, that's what I just said. In that case I don't see how we disagree. Of course it does matter. The invalidity is why the entire world was opposed to the US doing so. If the US wasn't in such a dominant economic and strategic position at the time it would have had to pay a much larger price.

My sub-point is America would deny the validity of China's invasion of Taiwan regardless of whether China's accusations against Taiwan were accurate or not, meaning the accuracy of such accusations isn't relevant. The outcome is the same. People in the EU might roll their eyes and say "ackshully china is right and taiwan really is making nuclear weapons", just as they once rolled their eyes at America's bogus claims about Iraq, but what would/did that change? A fat lot of nothing.

But my main point is that if Taiwan wants nuclear weapons they can make their own, so there is no sense in America giving nuclear weapons to Taiwan. And if America did, that would provide China with 'valid' casus belli anyway. I think PRC spies would be no less aware of plans to import nuclear weapons than plans to make them.

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#373

Post by tbarbugli » Sun, Dec 19, 2021, 5:40 PM UTC

croes wrote: post #295

loeg wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chinese labor is less cheap than it once was, and rising.

I bet that is more of a concern than human rights and the taiwan situation. I also bet if China would still be economically and technologically inferior to the west taiwan wouldn't be even on the agenda. We don't have a problem with Saudi Arabia's war with Yemen. Even after they caused largest cholera epidemic in human history.

Do you have a link about the Cholera thing? I am not really informed on the whole Yemen / Saudi

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#374

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Dec 19, 2021, 5:40 PM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #367

synergy20 wrote: post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Zhu took the tests and get admitted, like the rest of his peers(Jiang, Hu, Wen, Li,etc) they're all true graduates from the best universities in China then, which explains why China made leaps and bounds under their leadership. Xi is the only exception among them. Xi got in college without _any_ tests, purely because he has a powerful father then. It's said he could not understand a thing taught and there is no way h…

> Indeed it's unimaginable for a 6th grader to take calculus in the top universities all of a sudden. Top notch private tutoring and some work ethic can work wonders in fairly short periods of time. Corruption is certainly possible, but not the only conceivable possibility.

[deleted]

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#375

Post by manuelabeledo » Sun, Dec 19, 2021, 5:40 PM UTC

GekkePrutser wrote: post #351

sudosysgen wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is naive. The government simply doesn't have that power. If they tried to downplay Taiwan people would be absolutely furious. The extent of "mind control" is really not that great. The internet exists, and despite imperfect controls people have access to information. It would probably take Xi down to try to abandon Taiwan.

Serious question: Why do the Chinese people care so much about Taiwan though? What do they want with it? What's the endgame plan? If the vision is that everyone will be living happily ever after under the PRC umbrella, I could see some flaws in that reasoning. Like a whole population that will probably take up arms guerilla-style. I've visited Taiwan and even wearing pro-CCP colours is frowned upon. If they just want…

> Why do the Chinese people care so much about Taiwan though?

They mostly don’t. It’s not that big of an issue outside politics and loudmouths, which sometimes converge.

Taiwan is an excuse to add fire to patriotic indoctrination.

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#376

Post by 5e92cb50239222b » Sun, Dec 19, 2021, 5:40 PM UTC

picture wrote: post #300

deusum wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I couldn't imagine country run by a middle school bully. Now I can.

As someone who have spent 13 or so years of their life in China, I absolutely agree with this perspective. The culture of modern China seem to support a strangely "macho" image particularly for men: it's acceptable and maybe even encouraged, for men to be overtaken by rage, and thrash and kick around while yelling things. [1] It looks like this mentality is reflected by the politics of china as a whole. [1]: This is…

> https://youtu.be/aCdFec3uu_g

In what culture is this considered "macho"? He's acting like a little spoiled brat.

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#377

Post by pphysch » Sun, Dec 19, 2021, 5:41 PM UTC

manuelabeledo wrote: post #357

pphysch wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Making it look like this is some sort of US initiated warfare is insanely simplistic, and mostly wrong. It is a simplification, but it is mostly true . Washington has literally been trying to contain PRC's rise since it was born in 1949. Because duh, China has historically been the most prosperous civilization on the planet and they just got out from under the boot of Western/Japanese imperialism. War in Korea (and…

The Korean and Vietnam wars had nothing to do with China, but the USSR. Other than that, China was the clear aggressor in most of the conflicts you mention. China invaded Tibet with the excuse of “liberating” their people, which is essentially what the US has claimed to justify most of their foreign interventions. The CCP violently squashed the Tiananmen protests. China keeps claiming authority over large areas of th…

> The Korean and Vietnam wars had nothing to do with China, but the USSR.

Frankly, this makes me want to stop reading right here. This is an outrageously ignorant comment. PLA participated in both wars, which bordered China, and backed the Northern factions. USSR did neither.

But don't take my word for it. SecDef McNamara to LBJ:

"1. US strategy. The February decision to bomb North Vietnam and the July approval of Phase I deployments make sense only if they are in support of a long-run United States policy to contain Communist China."

https://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/frus1964-68v03...

You should not believe everything you read from Washington media or high school American history textbooks, as your comment implies you do. It will make you weak and exploitable.

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#378

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Dec 19, 2021, 5:42 PM UTC

motiejus wrote: post #200

I am Lithuanian; Lithuania Taiwan PRC conflict is frequently a topic of discussion these days among my peers. My position, shared by a few others, is that this is the next best thing that happened in Lithuania after leaving USSR: the first being joining NATO and EU in 2004. Everyone in the world can (and almost everyone do) endorse PRC. "You won't get fired for picking IBM/Oracle/PRC". While very few countries have t…

[deleted]

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#379

Post by Aperocky » Sun, Dec 19, 2021, 5:42 PM UTC

dnautics wrote: post #212

bettysdiagnose wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought the Chinese bullying of Australia has been largely recognised as a failure. Australia just exported to elsewhere (e.g. a lot more coal to India). If China invades Taiwan then most likely the USA goes to war over it. Anything else is to accept the final end of US leadership in the world. If we're going to end the world and kill billions then I guess it might as well be over something as honourable as Taiwane…

> Australia has been largely recognised as a failure. Australia just exported to elsewhere Not only that, but the loss of coal imports from Australia led directly to massive power outages in the northeastern provinces this fall. Though it's possible that the people aren't aware of that causal connection. > Anything else is to accept the final end of US leadership in the world There is some sense in which the US is wi…

> Not only that, but the loss of coal imports from Australia led directly to massive power outages in the northeastern provinces this fall.

This myth has been repeated so many times, how about: https://www.worldometers.info/coal/coal-production-by-countr...

The outage was caused by misguiding policy incentive (clean air etc), which was seen as a huge blunder, rightfully so, but it had nothing to do with Australian coal.

Re: Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

#380

Post by adrian_b » Sun, Dec 19, 2021, 5:43 PM UTC

imiric wrote: post #261

mark_l_watson wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

+1 thanks for that, now that I think about this issue, that is the way I feel also. A few of my friends think I am overboard when I talk positively about China, but really I am just reacting to how wonderful the people there were when my wife and I travelled in China, and I also really respect their AI tech, their tech in general, and how so many people have moved out of poverty. It is just their current government t…

Governments are a reflection of the people. They're not some nebulous, abstract entity; they're literally made and run by people of each country. They're chosen–or in some cases imposed–to represent the people to the world. Even in dictatorships, it is the people that choose for governments to remain in power. When that stops being the case, governments are overthrown, and a new set of people take power. The people o…

There is some truth in what you say that even in a dictatorship the government needs the support of some people to remain in power.

The problem is that it is enough for only a small minority to support the government for it to keep the power forever.

I have been born in a country occupied by communists and there for many decades an overwhelming majority of the people wished that the current government would be deleted, but nobody could do anything.

It is hard to estimate how many people supported the government, but it is very unlikely that they were more than 5% of the total population.

Nevertheless, that was enough to make impossible to organize any kind of opposition against the government because any attempt would be reported by informers and the initiators would be eliminated before being able to do any action.

Maybe in China there is a majority that supports the CCP, but that certainly is not a rule in dictatorships.