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Melting glaciers may produce thousands of kilometers of new salmon habitat

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Re: Melting glaciers may produce thousands of kilometers of new salmon habitat

#61

I think when trying to predict the future of climate change, you’ll find every model imperfect (even if it can tell you important truths about what may happen). If you try to make specific predictions, you’re going to turn people off. It’s far better to frame it as a matter of, “Look we don’t know what’ll happen and since we only have 1 planet and pollution is bad, we’re going to try and minimize the impact we have,…

But, if that were the right approach, you’d never change anything. We’d have never left the caves. The question is not whether we alter the natural environment. It’s whether we have reason to believe the benefits of those changes may outweigh the costs.

leaving the caves was an individual- or tribal-level decision. in fact, many groups did not leave the caves, only some did. it’s a poor metaphor for climate change because we don’t have the option of exploring both paths simultaneously as a species in the same way our ancestors did with those caves.

cost/benefit analysis, i do agree with though. or maybe a “risk-adjusted” cost/benefit. the biggest disagreement i have is with people who think climate change is inherently bad, rather than believing specific outcomes/effects of climate change are bad. when you unpack climate change often the bad things are common across catastrophes caused by other disruptions, e.g. food/water insecurity is something we could see both from climate change or large-scale war. certain ways of thinking about the situation might lead a person to believe that addressing these effects is the way to make humanity more bulletproof, rather than trying to prevent the several distinct causes (CO2 emissions being one of them) that lead to the real problems. though it’s never an all-or-nothing, more like “reduce the causes to the point that you’re not reducing our ability to respond to the effects”. cost/benefit analysis, like you say.

Re: Melting glaciers may produce thousands of kilometers of new salmon habitat

#62

I think when trying to predict the future of climate change, you’ll find every model imperfect (even if it can tell you important truths about what may happen). If you try to make specific predictions, you’re going to turn people off. It’s far better to frame it as a matter of, “Look we don’t know what’ll happen and since we only have 1 planet and pollution is bad, we’re going to try and minimize the impact we have,…

Isn't this line of thought very similar to how the Roman Church guided people in the past? Results were not astonishingly good...

Re: Melting glaciers may produce thousands of kilometers of new salmon habitat

#63
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ... and since we only have 1 planet and pollution is bad ... There is a high correlation and probably causal relationship between increasing global pollution and improved living standards. It is extremely unclear that "pollution is bad". Someone taking a strictly data driven approach could reasonably conclude that pollution is good. There is a reason that the pro-environment types are struggling to have an impact o…

Environmentalist solutions that would lower carbon would have no negative impact on our standards of living, and would in fact raise it. For example we know from studies that long car commutes are terrible for your health and even dramatically rise divorce rates. With that in mind, jurisdictions with good public rapid transportation networks have higher quality of life than SF, and at the same time have less CO2 emis…

From my point of view, two of the main factors against environmentalist ideas were:

1. Scientific dishonesty among some environmentalist researchers

2. Vocal advocates caught doing exact opposite in their personal lives - hypocrisy

Re: Melting glaciers may produce thousands of kilometers of new salmon habitat

#64
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ... and since we only have 1 planet and pollution is bad ... There is a high correlation and probably causal relationship between increasing global pollution and improved living standards. It is extremely unclear that "pollution is bad". Someone taking a strictly data driven approach could reasonably conclude that pollution is good. There is a reason that the pro-environment types are struggling to have an impact o…

Environmentalist solutions that would lower carbon would have no negative impact on our standards of living, and would in fact raise it. For example we know from studies that long car commutes are terrible for your health and even dramatically rise divorce rates. With that in mind, jurisdictions with good public rapid transportation networks have higher quality of life than SF, and at the same time have less CO2 emis…

Culture war is just a small part of the problem. In order to avoid disasters, we will have to limit our consumption to the levels of 1960ies. For many businesses, big and small this means complete bankruptcy. If you want reliable numbers, Google for 'future economic challenges' and get the report from French Nobel prise winning economists.

Re: Melting glaciers may produce thousands of kilometers of new salmon habitat

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are 84,000 dams in the United States. More than one a day since we became a country. Most of them don't generate any meaningful electricity, but they do disrupt habitat for many native fish species. I would like to see them all destroyed. We can find electricity elsewhere.

electricity is not the only reason we dam rivers, millions of acres of agriculture is irrigated via damning and diverting rivers

Which is why emerging precision fermentation technologies for starches and proteins are very important so that land used for agriculture can be rewilded.

Re: Melting glaciers may produce thousands of kilometers of new salmon habitat

#66
post #37

I think when trying to predict the future of climate change, you’ll find every model imperfect (even if it can tell you important truths about what may happen). If you try to make specific predictions, you’re going to turn people off. It’s far better to frame it as a matter of, “Look we don’t know what’ll happen and since we only have 1 planet and pollution is bad, we’re going to try and minimize the impact we have,…

> ... and since we only have 1 planet and pollution is bad ... There is a high correlation and probably causal relationship between increasing global pollution and improved living standards. It is extremely unclear that "pollution is bad". Someone taking a strictly data driven approach could reasonably conclude that pollution is good. There is a reason that the pro-environment types are struggling to have an impact o…

> There is a high correlation and probably causal relationship between increasing global pollution and improved living standards.

There is a high correlation and probably causal relationship between consuming heroin and pleasure yet you don't want to do that every day because short term positive effects don't cancel long term negative ones.

Everyone knows pollution is a long term catastrophe, us being addicted to it doesn't make it a good thing....

Re: Melting glaciers may produce thousands of kilometers of new salmon habitat

#67
post #53
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why compartmentalizing things as "good" or "bad" is unhelpful. It's rarely so simple. Sure, there are aspects of polluting behaviours that ostensibly raise the quality of life for many people, but that doesn't mean you should ignore the long term impact of that behavior, especially if it has a provably negative impact on the planet. You have to look at the whole issue, not just the short term positives.

> provably negative impact on the planet. There is nothing negative happening to the planet. We couldn't hurt it if we tried. "Human life supporting environment" is what's at stake.

> We couldn’t hurt it if we tried

Even if we dug up every gram of fissile material on earth, made it into a bomb, and detonated it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyECrGp-Sw8&t=249

Re: Melting glaciers may produce thousands of kilometers of new salmon habitat

#68
post #37

I think when trying to predict the future of climate change, you’ll find every model imperfect (even if it can tell you important truths about what may happen). If you try to make specific predictions, you’re going to turn people off. It’s far better to frame it as a matter of, “Look we don’t know what’ll happen and since we only have 1 planet and pollution is bad, we’re going to try and minimize the impact we have,…

> ... and since we only have 1 planet and pollution is bad ... There is a high correlation and probably causal relationship between increasing global pollution and improved living standards. It is extremely unclear that "pollution is bad". Someone taking a strictly data driven approach could reasonably conclude that pollution is good. There is a reason that the pro-environment types are struggling to have an impact o…

I don't think car smog is good for you and I don't think you need a study to prove that.
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