Solid Snake-Oil Storage: This SSD Is Aimed at Audiophiles • Hacker News Board

Re: Solid Snake-Oil Storage: This SSD Is Aimed at Audiophiles

#21

Post by smackeyacky » Sun, Dec 19, 2021, 12:28 AM UTC

zmix wrote: post #13

No measured data AND no hearing experience. Now that's what I call serious journalism!

This is my favourite BS argument by audiophiles when defending some impossible claim or other: you have to listen to it. Not measure it or pay any attention to how the item actually works.

They claim they can hear digital cables, ethernet cables and now storage devices. Its plainly ridiculous but somehow they manage to find each other and reinforce this nonsense en-masse, ruining online forums with garbage and confusing noobs with half understood technical terms like jitter.

Then the next step is always some disparaging remark that you can't hear the difference because your system isn't "high enough resolution".

Audiophiles have become more insufferable as systems improved.

Re: Solid Snake-Oil Storage: This SSD Is Aimed at Audiophiles

#22

Post by cmsj » Sun, Dec 19, 2021, 12:53 AM UTC

wtallis wrote: post #17

zmix wrote: post #13

No measured data AND no hearing experience. Now that's what I call serious journalism!

You seem to have overlooked that this piece is filed in the news section, not the reviews section.

To be fair though, audiophile reviews never contain any actual measured data either.

Re: Solid Snake-Oil Storage: This SSD Is Aimed at Audiophiles

#23

Post by ipspam » Sun, Dec 19, 2021, 2:30 AM UTC

Put this this hard drive in a normal computer, and you won't hear a difference. That would be ridiculous. It would be put in a $3000-$6,000 audiophile music server that has a custom clean purpose built OS, and an audiophile DC linear power supply. Everything is optimized for clean power and clean signal.

This harddrive seeks to solve a VERY REAL problem in the audiophile world: computers are super D super noisy.

There are many ways to reduce noise. The best way is to isolate the computer entirely. I use a Sonore OpticalRendu and opticalmodule deluxe. Duel Femto clocks on each side to eliminate jitter, and fiberoptic cable in between to physically isolate the electronics from one another. The computer sends the file wirelessly to the router, where it then gets turned into a light signal to keep all the nasty electrical noise and timing errors out of the signal. (and yes, every single piece of equipment connects to the wall from a single socket, with a distributor, and then 2 power conditioners for different equipment, similar to isolation, I've at least made a solid solid effort)

This is $2300 for a piece of equipment that isn't needed if I just plug my computer into my DAC.

It works miracles. Night and day. So yes, some things may seem and look frivolous, and many are. Most are also extremely expensive.

It's like racing. That last 1% performance is ultra expensive, but makes all the difference.

Anyone here driving a race car will never notice all the attention to detail that allows one racecars to beat another.

Re: Solid Snake-Oil Storage: This SSD Is Aimed at Audiophiles

#24

Post by tuatoru » Sun, Dec 19, 2021, 3:12 AM UTC

zepolen wrote: post #18

runnerup wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sometimes the USB cable which connects my iPhone to my Honda Civic degrades. I have to replace it every 6 months or so. It doesn't kill the connection, but audio quality goes down very noticeably. Replacing it with a new one seems to fix it for the next half-year. Is this real? Whats the mechanism behind it?

Cars are terrible environments for electronics, the temperatures in there range from freezing to sweltering and you can be sure that the tiny gauge wire in most cheap usb cables will pay the price from the constant expansion/contraction cycle day by day. This can cause resistance pockets in the wire itself especially when since it's probably continuously moved around every time you plug in the phone, further stressin…

Most "gold" contacts have thin gold plating (10 micrometres or thinner) which is wiped off with a few insertion/removal cycles.

The gold is added by the manufacturer to prevent corrosion of the contacts during transport and storage of the cable/device prior to first use.

Contacts corrode on exposure to oxidants. They can be re-made by disconnecting and reconnecting, which (if the contacts are properly designed) wipes their surfaces.

I have never heard of "resistance pockets" in wire, but I suppose that could be one way of describing broken conductors inside the cable that only continue to work because the end pieces are still making contact. Until the ends corrode or the wire is flexed in a way that pulls the ends apart.

Re: Solid Snake-Oil Storage: This SSD Is Aimed at Audiophiles

#25

Post by jmpman » Sun, Dec 19, 2021, 5:18 AM UTC

wtallis wrote: post #6

jmpman wrote: post #4

I would have preferred a review that wasn’t quite as dismissive. SSDs have periodic higher read latency that could impact audio playback if the host buffers aren’t large enough. The flash translation layer periodically reshuffles data, even when the workload is just reads. I expect this drive is duplicating the data internally, and pivoting back and forth between the two copies, targeting one which is not performing…

I think your mental model of how SSDs work is a bit inaccurate. Read operations will not trigger wear leveling during normal use. Reads will only cause the SSD to start moving data around if there's a correctable ECC error with the read, prompting the drive to write a fresh and corrected copy. Correctable read errors can crop up from data degradation over time, or from read disturb errors (analogous to DRAM rowhammer…

You write that reads will not trigger wear leveling, and then you go on to explain multiple scenarios in which reads will trigger rewrites. Those rewrites can cause elevated read latency. I have done SSD code reviews with multiple SSD vendors, and there are some which will trigger wear leveling after a set number of reads, instead of waiting for elevated bit error rates. And yes, the elevated read latency should be in the order of 5ms, which shouldn’t impact a properly buffered audio application, but the world is full of incorrectly designed applications.

https://storageswiss.com/2019/04/18/not-achieving-the-ssd-pe...

As for enterprise drives, there are dozens of tricks to ensure lower latency. Reading from other members in an erasure code, read prioritization over writes. It all depends upon how low of latency you’re trying to achieve, and with what level of consistency.

My point was that this drive may be using some innovative techniques to achieve consistently low read latencies in a “consumer” class drive. Possibly novel.

Re: Solid Snake-Oil Storage: This SSD Is Aimed at Audiophiles

#26

Post by zmix » Sun, Dec 19, 2021, 10:35 AM UTC

cmsj wrote: post #22

wtallis wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to have overlooked that this piece is filed in the news section, not the reviews section.

To be fair though, audiophile reviews never contain any actual measured data either.

That's not fair at all! At least not to the major audiophile magazines, here in Germany, or such a prestigious publication like "The Stereophile". Just two examples:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/bowers-wilkins-diamond-s...

or

https://www.stereo.de/hifi-test/produkt/aavik-d-180-2058 (see "Messergebnisse" and "Messwerte").

Re: Solid Snake-Oil Storage: This SSD Is Aimed at Audiophiles

#27

Post by zmix » Sun, Dec 19, 2021, 10:40 AM UTC

wtallis wrote: post #17

zmix wrote: post #13

No measured data AND no hearing experience. Now that's what I call serious journalism!

You seem to have overlooked that this piece is filed in the news section, not the reviews section.

I did not overlook the devaluation of the product in the title, which can only be a result: "Snake Oil". This is why I said: "No measurements AND no experience." But he came to a conclusion: It's snake-oil. Unprofessional.

Re: Solid Snake-Oil Storage: This SSD Is Aimed at Audiophiles

#28

Post by zmix » Sun, Dec 19, 2021, 11:18 AM UTC

smackeyacky wrote: post #21

zmix wrote: post #13

No measured data AND no hearing experience. Now that's what I call serious journalism!

This is my favourite BS argument by audiophiles when defending some impossible claim or other: you have to listen to it. Not measure it or pay any attention to how the item actually works. They claim they can hear digital cables, ethernet cables and now storage devices. Its plainly ridiculous but somehow they manage to find each other and reinforce this nonsense en-masse, ruining online forums with garbage and confus…

> This is my favourite BS argument by audiophiles when defending some impossible claim or other: you have to listen to it.

Just like a lot of engineers will tell you, that having studied a topic on university/college doesn't make up for "field experience".

> Then the next step is always some disparaging remark that you can't hear the difference because your system isn't "high enough resolution".

It's true. Just like there is differences in quality of measuring instruments (cheap china multimeter vs. Agilent or the like) there is difference in electronic components for audio reproduction.

I have one other disparaging remark for you: Not only is your system not resolving enough, your ears are not trained enough to hear the difference ;-).

> Audiophiles have become more insufferable as systems improved.

Well, that just proves audiophiles from the 1980's were right: They told us, that there can be better systems. It's just, that those developments, back then, were expensive and new, which resulted in high product prices, while today they are common main stream.

Re: Solid Snake-Oil Storage: This SSD Is Aimed at Audiophiles

#29

Post by smackeyacky » Sun, Dec 19, 2021, 8:25 PM UTC

zmix wrote: post #28

smackeyacky wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is my favourite BS argument by audiophiles when defending some impossible claim or other: you have to listen to it. Not measure it or pay any attention to how the item actually works. They claim they can hear digital cables, ethernet cables and now storage devices. Its plainly ridiculous but somehow they manage to find each other and reinforce this nonsense en-masse, ruining online forums with garbage and confus…

> This is my favourite BS argument by audiophiles when defending some impossible claim or other: you have to listen to it. Just like a lot of engineers will tell you, that having studied a topic on university/college doesn't make up for "field experience". > Then the next step is always some disparaging remark that you can't hear the difference because your system isn't "high enough resolution". It's true. Just like…

Audiophiles don't make systems, engineers do. The only thing that audiophiles produce is consistently is nonsense: green pens for CDs, audible jitter, validating the snake oil merchants who sell them magic boxes of dirt, special resonance stones, pyramids, digital cables that can't possibly do what is claimed.

That much vaunted "training" is a special form of self delusion. Try asking any self respecting audiophile whether they can pass a double blind test in picking out the difference between good old RCA cables and all you get is a long, copy pasted diatribe of how flawed testing is. That tells you they spend all their time telling themselves what they want to hear.

Re: Solid Snake-Oil Storage: This SSD Is Aimed at Audiophiles

#30

Post by wtallis » Sun, Dec 19, 2021, 10:25 PM UTC

zmix wrote: post #27

wtallis wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to have overlooked that this piece is filed in the news section, not the reviews section.

I did not overlook the devaluation of the product in the title, which can only be a result: "Snake Oil". This is why I said: "No measurements AND no experience." But he came to a conclusion: It's snake-oil. Unprofessional.

I'm pretty sure you don't honestly believe that even the most outlandish claims from the least credible sources deserve rigorous testing before they can be dismissed. The only people who aren't willing to draw a line somewhere and conclude from the manufacturer's lack of convincing explanations for their implausible claims that it really is bullshit, are people engaged in the same kind of scamming and trolling.

No honest, reasonable assessment of this "product" and its marketing can conclude that the manufacturer appears to be on the level. Expecting journalists to wade through literally infinite bullshit from people not acting in good faith before reaching a conclusion is absurd. Your perverted idea of what journalism should be is far more harmful than any journalistic laziness that may be on display here.