TikTok streaming software is an illegal fork of OBS • Hacker News Board

Re: TikTok streaming software is an illegal fork of OBS

#341

Post by wizzwizz4 » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 9:18 PM UTC

donkeyd wrote: post #48

randomluck040 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I‘m not so sure about it being laughed out of court unfortunately.

Can concur, courts don't know jack about tech and have to rely on experts that aren't always independent.

Rebutting the argument doesn't rely on tech knowledge.

“But, your honour, I didn't copy this person's book! I used the autocomplete on my phone, and it just so happened to produce their 500 000 word novel!”

You need tech knowledge to think that's even plausible. Sure, they wouldn't dismiss it out of hand (I think “laughed out of court” is a figure of speech), but I wouldn't be surprised if it got a few giggles.

Re: TikTok streaming software is an illegal fork of OBS

#342

Post by borodi » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 9:20 PM UTC

ignoramous wrote: post #318

ghusbands wrote: post #9

People are misunderstanding this and claiming it's not problematic. Ben Torrell (an OBS developer) notes later in the thread that there is indeed GPL code compiled into TikTok's executables; since source is not available and they have not got another license, it is unlicensed and hence illegal.

I wonder if the GPLv3 violation pulls in TikTok's other software and infrastructure under it. That'd be one for the ages (like OpenWrt was [0]) if FSF manages to reign it in! [0] https://thenewstack.io/the-open-source-lesson-of-the-linksys...

OBS is GPLv2 so I don't think it would get to that level. Tho if the other GPL code is v3 then who knows.

Re: TikTok streaming software is an illegal fork of OBS

#343

Post by pshushereba » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 9:21 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #334

pshushereba wrote: post #11

China stealing intellectual property? If only we could have seen this coming!

" Eschew flamebait. Avoid unrelated controversies and generic tangents. " https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

My comment doesn't meet any of this criteria. The original article was about a Chinese company's unauthorized fork of OBS. It's semantics whether or not you consider an "unauthorized fork" as stealing, but I certainly do.

So it's neither unrelated or a generic tangent, as it relates to intellectual property theft. It's beyond question both that China as a country is known for stealing intellectual property, and that Chinese companies work closely with the CCP.

In the introduction of The Wires Of War by Jacob Helberg, he cites a statistic that estimates that "Chinese theft of intellectual property costs Americans anywhere from $225 billion to $600 Billion every year..."

Re: TikTok streaming software is an illegal fork of OBS

#344

Post by throwaway413 » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 9:22 PM UTC

r1ch wrote: post #232

4684499 wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's pretty fast for a beta released yesterday. Are the devs actively monitoring and reverse engineering every binary released that related to streaming? Also, where can I get the live studio executable? None of the links I found works, is that public release?

I'm the one on the OBS team who originally found this. I saw a tweet yesterday from someone that's in the beta, and as with any desktop live streaming software (and especially with "Studio" in the name) I was curious if they were using any OBS Studio code or if it was developed all in-house. The download link is available in their JS, you can find the most recent installer link here: https://tron-sg.bytelemon.com/api…

This is why I HN. Thank you for that clear account of the discovery, funny what a little curiosity can lead to.

Not masking the names further makes me wonder if whoever actually implemented this may not have been aware of the repercussions.

Re: TikTok streaming software is an illegal fork of OBS

#345

Post by nsv » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 9:22 PM UTC

wongarsu wrote: post #50

Liquix wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hopefully this is high profile enough to incur some consequences. GPL is ironclad on paper, but the sad reality is unscrupulous/international companies can and do just copy code directly off github into their products with no repercussions

Unless a major contributor of OBS sues, nothing will come of it. That's unfortunately very rare, the only one doing that with any frequency seems to be Harald Welte (one of the iptables developers) [1] 1: https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases#Wel...

Couldn't the FSF sue on their behalf?

Re: TikTok streaming software is an illegal fork of OBS

#346

Post by samspenc » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 9:31 PM UTC

r1ch wrote: post #232

4684499 wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's pretty fast for a beta released yesterday. Are the devs actively monitoring and reverse engineering every binary released that related to streaming? Also, where can I get the live studio executable? None of the links I found works, is that public release?

I'm the one on the OBS team who originally found this. I saw a tweet yesterday from someone that's in the beta, and as with any desktop live streaming software (and especially with "Studio" in the name) I was curious if they were using any OBS Studio code or if it was developed all in-house. The download link is available in their JS, you can find the most recent installer link here: https://tron-sg.bytelemon.com/api…

Wow this is amazing, thanks for digging in and doing this work. If this were Reddit, I would give you a gold award, but since this is HN, all I have to give is my 1 upvote.

Re: TikTok streaming software is an illegal fork of OBS

#347

Post by dathinab » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 9:32 PM UTC

ignoramous wrote: post #318

ghusbands wrote: post #9

People are misunderstanding this and claiming it's not problematic. Ben Torrell (an OBS developer) notes later in the thread that there is indeed GPL code compiled into TikTok's executables; since source is not available and they have not got another license, it is unlicensed and hence illegal.

I wonder if the GPLv3 violation pulls in TikTok's other software and infrastructure under it. That'd be one for the ages (like OpenWrt was [0]) if FSF manages to reign it in! [0] https://thenewstack.io/the-open-source-lesson-of-the-linksys...

No it doesn't that's not how GPL (or any license) works.

What happens is that it's a breach of contract (licenses are contracts) which lead to an termination that contract (1) (license) which grants the usage rights (copyright) for the software.

Which leads a company to (roughly) following choices:

- start complying with the license in time "before" the license gets invalidated

- buy a proprietary license from the license holder

- stop using the software, and pay damages for previous usage/contract violation/copyright infringement(1)

This means you are not ever forced by law to release your software under GPL, but you might be forced by economics to do so, as you might not be able to afford not doing so (or it's just simply cheaper).

(1): The topic how/when the contract becomes invalid and for which terms you can sue is tricky, and depends on the country in question.

EDIT: Also even if GPL would work like that, there is no reason why e.g. their non-OBS boundled apps or infrastructure should be affected.

Re: TikTok streaming software is an illegal fork of OBS

#348

Post by viktorcode » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 9:33 PM UTC

oliwarner wrote: post #70

It's concerning how many self-labelled software engineers on Twitter are chipping in with comments like "it's open source so it's fair game" or "they just need to add attribution".

Most likely that's the reason of OBS' code ending up in TikTok's product. Some engineer disregarded the license with no insidious intention to steal.

Re: TikTok streaming software is an illegal fork of OBS

#349

Post by paxys » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 9:33 PM UTC

winphone1974 wrote: post #243

G3rn0ti wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, yes, this applies to engineering. But not to software engineering. Personally, I like „software engineering“ as it is — being a free profession where talent counts more than a degree.

The degree is part of the training of an engineer, not the professional designation itself. The challenge with our current understanding of the title software engineer is that practitioners are not held to the same standards and responsibilities as other engineering fields. It doesn't have anything to do with talent.

You can only be held to some standards if there exist a common set of standards that the entire industry can agree on. This is impossible for software.

Re: TikTok streaming software is an illegal fork of OBS

#350

Post by codetrotter » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 9:38 PM UTC

ludamad wrote: post #266

minimaxir wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the least, the internet eventually realized that "you must delete your video game ROMs within 24 hours of obtaining them" is not a valid legal stance.

Oh that jogs forgotten memories.

Anyone remember that disclaimer some pirate websites used to have where they said something starting with something like “On October 28, 1998, President Clinton signed into law the Digital Millennium Copyright Act”, and the disclaimer went on to mention some DMCA exceptions like learning and teaching or something? Always gave me a chuckle. As if saying that the DMCA does not apply for you is enough to make it actually so.