Omicron largely evades immunity from past infection or two vaccine doses • Hacker News Board

Re: Omicron largely evades immunity from past infection or two vaccine doses

#121

Post by triactual » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 8:31 PM UTC

13years wrote: post #109

triactual wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To remember that normal people from our own social circles get infected and usually survive just fine. Rather than pretending that every infection is an overweight, anti-vaxxer, etc. who dies immediately after destroying the local medical facilities. I think both sides of the severity discussion would benefit from keeping the human consequences in mind, whether they are more or less severe than imagined.

Agreed, yet at some point society has to be productive again. Living in constant anxiety will ultimately be more destructive than the disease everyone fears if it has not already.

I actually completely agree. COVID is endemic so now we’re just prolonging the inevitable getting-on-with-it and the only question is how much damage we do pretending otherwise.

Re: Omicron largely evades immunity from past infection or two vaccine doses

#122

Post by hackerfromthefu » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 8:48 PM UTC

astrange wrote: post #110

abduhl wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your argument boils down to “well the body learns what it looks like and so discriminates against similar looking viruses with more exposure allowing more targeted responses.” Under this theory, shouldn’t a natural immunity (as obtained from prior infection with alpha/delta) result in better immune response because it has learned “more” way to discriminate than the spike protein? Boosters seem inappropriate if the th…

It might, but you don't want to get natural immunity because that would mean getting sick first. Getting booster shots doesn't simply give you more antibodies, it gives you better ones; each round finds new ways to match the spike protein.

Can you provide a reference for this, as I thought the boosters were just the original vaccines, hence exactly the same antibodies.

Yesterday I read that the customised omicron specific boosters being developed by pfizer and moderna are not going ahead as the existing boosters are deemed good enough, though I can't find the link for that now.

Re: Omicron largely evades immunity from past infection or two vaccine doses

#123

Post by hackerfromthefu » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 8:56 PM UTC

robbmorganf wrote: post #12

Does anyone understand why a third dose of the same vaccine improves immunity to Omicron? I'm willing to believe the empirical evidence that boosters make a meaningful difference, but I can't figure out intuitively why the same mRNA a third time helps to address this new spike.

And no one is talking about whether we will be expected to take a fourth and subsequent

Re: Omicron largely evades immunity from past infection or two vaccine doses

#124

Post by astrange » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 9:02 PM UTC

hackerfromthefu wrote: post #122

astrange wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might, but you don't want to get natural immunity because that would mean getting sick first. Getting booster shots doesn't simply give you more antibodies, it gives you better ones; each round finds new ways to match the spike protein.

Can you provide a reference for this, as I thought the boosters were just the original vaccines, hence exactly the same antibodies. Yesterday I read that the customised omicron specific boosters being developed by pfizer and moderna are not going ahead as the existing boosters are deemed good enough, though I can't find the link for that now.

They are the original vaccines. I suppose it works by giving your body another chance to study them.

Re: Omicron largely evades immunity from past infection or two vaccine doses

#125

Post by mypalmike » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 9:16 PM UTC

chiefalchemist wrote: post #105

mypalmike wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Governments are adapting to new information. If you expect government policy to be based on an all-knowing oracle, of course you are going to be disappointed.

If I said that. If I implied that. Please point it out to me.

It's implied by "government promises". What has your government promised wrt covid? Were such failed promises made in bad faith, or due to the fact that covid is a complex and changing global pandemic without clear answers to anyone?

Re: Omicron largely evades immunity from past infection or two vaccine doses

#126

Post by mypalmike » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 9:26 PM UTC

twox2 wrote: post #113

mypalmike wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Governments are adapting to new information. If you expect government policy to be based on an all-knowing oracle, of course you are going to be disappointed.

Governments are not known to relinquish control once a new baseline of normal is established... so it does seem that they are adapting to new information only when it serves a certain agenda.

Mask and other mandates from the Spanish flu era were relinquished once they were no longer needed. Interestingly, paranoia about such things was as common (and wrong) back then at it is now.

Re: Omicron largely evades immunity from past infection or two vaccine doses

#127

Post by xchaotic » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 9:45 PM UTC

eightysixfour wrote: post #48

SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe is ... about how recently you received your last shot .. not because it is really any different than my 2nd shot. No. That appears not be the situation. Immunity shortly after the thirds shot is substantially higher than shortly after the second https://twitter.com/PaulMainwood/status/1460191035531878405 https://twitter.com/PaulMainwood/status/1458026852249919490

I have seen speculation that the second dose was given too quickly.

Given how quickly the virus mutates, giving it less frequently makes even less sense.

Re: Omicron largely evades immunity from past infection or two vaccine doses

#128

Post by tfehring » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 9:46 PM UTC

abduhl wrote: post #63

snewman wrote: post #29

It's worth clarifying: un-boosted vaccination or past infection seem to have greatly reduced ability to prevent infection with Omicron. There is still substantial (lessened, but not as drastically lessened) protection against serious illness / death. My understanding is that protection-against-infection and protection-against-death rely on different aspects of the immune system. The primary protection against initial…

What you’re saying sounds correct, but is there any evidence that shows omicron is resulting in less serious illness/death because of the vaccines? The reports seem to indicate that the overall risk profile of omicron is lower including for unvaccinated people. Are we just parroting the same fact as for the alpha/delta variants without any substantial evidence here when we say vaccination helps avoid serious illness…

Two doses of Pfizer's vaccine reduce hospitalization risk from Omicron by ~70% based on data from South Africa, with similar reductions across all age cohorts from 18 to 79. https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/discovery-health-releases-cri...

Re: Omicron largely evades immunity from past infection or two vaccine doses

#129

Post by lborsato » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 10:12 PM UTC

notabee wrote: post #64

robbmorganf wrote: post #12

Does anyone understand why a third dose of the same vaccine improves immunity to Omicron? I'm willing to believe the empirical evidence that boosters make a meaningful difference, but I can't figure out intuitively why the same mRNA a third time helps to address this new spike.

From what I understand, the immune system has some capacity to anticipate mutations. The most basic function of antibodies is to stick to and neutralize the target, in this case the spike protein that the mRNA vaccine presents to the immune system via producing some copies in muscle cells. But the immune system doesn't just produce exact form-fitting duplicate antibodies, it also has something like a biological "fuzz…

Unfortunately as a result of original antigenic sin, the fact that the immune system has been trained for by a vaccine for a certain strain means that the body will respond to that strain, likely unable to mount a new defence for the different strain.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33692194/

Re: Omicron largely evades immunity from past infection or two vaccine doses

#130

Post by didjathinkmess » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 10:14 PM UTC

squarefoot wrote: post #81

snewman wrote: post #29

It's worth clarifying: un-boosted vaccination or past infection seem to have greatly reduced ability to prevent infection with Omicron. There is still substantial (lessened, but not as drastically lessened) protection against serious illness / death. My understanding is that protection-against-infection and protection-against-death rely on different aspects of the immune system. The primary protection against initial…

This, a million times. Over here 80-90% of Covid patients in ICUs are either never vaccinated or in need of a boost because of too much time past since their 2nd shot. So, yes, vaccination may not prevent being infected, but for sure it helps immensely in avoiding being hospitalized and shortening the infection, which does actually translate in less people being infected. And believe me, having both lived and seen th…

>So, yes, vaccination may not prevent being infected, but for sure it helps immensely in avoiding being hospitalized and shortening the infection, which does actually translate in less people being infected.

On the flip side, infections in the vaccinated who are asymptomatic are more likely to leave the house, simply because they have no idea that they're sick. Perhaps they end up at a restaurant with their mask off and turn into a literal super spreaders (if we're to believe Omicron is 4X more transmissable). This was always a potential problem with vaccines that only reduce symptoms and don't prevent transmission. If Omicron is indeed mild and highly contagious as officials in South Africa claim, this could be a huge issue with anyone vaccinated.