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Open letter from the BMJ to Mark Zuckerberg

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Re: Open letter from the BMJ to Mark Zuckerberg

#61

Is fact checking that difficult? Imagine a forum that works in the following way: 1. You post similar to here. 2. Any post that has a claim is flagged. The poster, or another commenter has 24 hours (or some time period) to link to both a page and specific text (similar to how Google highlights search text when visiting a link) that supports the claim. 3. Once a claim is attached, posters can vote and downvote how wel…

This wouldn't work, at least not outside of places like HN with a strong technical bent and a strong assumed knowledge base of the people.

I've done fact-checking work professionally; it's not that fact-checking itself is difficult, it's that fact-checking can only work as intended in certain information environments, and mass media is NOT one. I've also studied filter bubbles, algorithmic influences on political POVs, etc.

Your proposed system might work in a vacuum, but unfortunately, our modern landscape is NOT such a vacuum.

Issues with your proposed system:

2.) What counts as a claim? Is 'the sky is blue' a claim, or is that common knowledge? We clearly wouldn't flag common knowledge because using the flag when it's not necessary deprecates the usefulness of the flag, but then who decides what counts as common knowledge, particularly across different cultures and countries?

3.) A common metadata way of judging someone online is through their sources. Think of many subreddits which don't allow certain 'left-wing' or 'right-wing' sources. The supporting text will be upvoted and downvoted based on the readers' idea of the source: In the politics subreddit, a NYT 'claim support' would be upvoted while a WSJ one would be downvoted. Instead of using headlines as proxys, the URL would be: "Oh, it's X. They just always lie. Don't even need to check; downvote, nobody listening to THEM could be correct."

4.) Once the whitelisting and blacklisting go into effect and people are aware of it, the voting becomes even more distorted as certain people with grudges can both climb community hierarchy (and therefore put themselves in positions of influence and say things like 'we don't read X here, they're all liars') and encourage voting en masse to blacklist certain sites they disagree with.

5.) This is terrible for search and archiving as well as for tracking bad actors.

And that's just off the top of my head.

Re: Open letter from the BMJ to Mark Zuckerberg

#62
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you fact check someone who has more expertise than you? How do you fact check a brand new fact?

Brand new facts generally go through a public disclosure process where some established institution (a news outlet, academic journal, whatever) is willing to vouch for it as true, or at least vouch for it as being worthy of consideration and discussion— and in any case, will strive to present it with the appropriate context and framing as far as level of certainty, who the players are and what their motivations are,…

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Re: Open letter from the BMJ to Mark Zuckerberg

#63
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a silly proposal. You can find plenty of web pages with specific text that supports obvious falsehoods like flat earth theory.

Not really. The whole point of down and upvoting the sources is because the sources themselves might be erroneous. Without an infinite cascade of the process I described, relying on down and upvoting of specific claims is more tractable. In other words, you might have a claim that's supported by an otherwise bad website, but the bad website actually has a morsel of legitimately factual evidence there. It would be up…

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Re: Open letter from the BMJ to Mark Zuckerberg

#64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you present novel ideas in this framework?

> How do you present novel ideas in this framework? In that framework you present novel ideas, and they are vetted, somewhere other than the particular forum . While it is somewhat different in detail, it's conceptually a lot like the Wikipedia model.

Yes, it is very similar to what Wikipedia does. In fact I'd say the only real distinction is that what I'm describing in theory should enforce evidence far more strictly and on a more granular basis than Wikipedia does with articles.

Re: Open letter from the BMJ to Mark Zuckerberg

#66

This one is much trickier than it looks. Reposting user nojito's post ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29596111 ), but here in a top level comment: > The fact check was correct in this instance though? > https://leadstories.com/hoax-alert/2021/11/fact-check-britis... > The conclusions in the original BMJ article make zero sense when actually scrutinized. > https://www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj.n2635 Please read b…

The first link is 404. Here's another link on the same topic: https://leadstories.com/hoax-alert/2021/11/fact-check-britis...

Re: Open letter from the BMJ to Mark Zuckerberg

#67
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact check was correct in this instance though? https://leadstories.com/hoax-alert/2021/11/fact-check-britis... The conclusions in the original BMJ article make zero sense when actually scrutinized. https://www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj.n2635

The original BMJ article doesn't draw any conclusions that I can see. It certainly doesn't suggest the Pfizer vaccine is unsafe or ineffective, as the "fact check" heavily implies.

It almost certainly does. They even block out a box of their conclusions in grey to draw the reader eyes.

Additionally, the fact they never reached out to the companies at all is telling enough of their agenda.

Re: Open letter from the BMJ to Mark Zuckerberg

#68
post #66

This one is much trickier than it looks. Reposting user nojito's post ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29596111 ), but here in a top level comment: > The fact check was correct in this instance though? > https://leadstories.com/hoax-alert/2021/11/fact-check-britis... > The conclusions in the original BMJ article make zero sense when actually scrutinized. > https://www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj.n2635 Please read b…

The first link is 404. Here's another link on the same topic: https://leadstories.com/hoax-alert/2021/11/fact-check-britis...

Fixed the first link, thanks.

Re: Open letter from the BMJ to Mark Zuckerberg

#69
post #33

In 2018 Facebook "fact checked" a Babylon Bee article with this headline: “CNN Purchases Industrial-Sized Washing Machine to Spin News Before Publication”. (Babylon Bee is a humor site and clearly labeled as such.) https://twitter.com/Adam4d/status/969405110324523008

Well... that seems to be working? The story isn't a fact. Got marked as not a fact. What's the problem?

Re: Open letter from the BMJ to Mark Zuckerberg

#70

I prefer to do my own fact checking.

This is an impossible task. You are reliant on the opinion of experts who you should pay to take the time to evaluate the topic. We use to do this with proper journalism. But the internet has largely destroyed the industry.
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