TikTok streaming software is an illegal fork of OBS • Hacker News Board

Re: TikTok streaming software is an illegal fork of OBS

#221

Post by gunapologist99 » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 5:41 PM UTC

The use of the word "illegal" seems problematic if this is a contractual dispute over (GPL) license terms. No one seems to be claiming that TikTok actually committed a criminal act (although, perhaps they did, if this was intentional as it appears, and TikTok is engaging in criminal-levels of distribution. Not a lawyer, so just speculating here.)

It probably would have been better if the OP had said "violated the license agreement".

Still, many other companies have eventually caved under GPL lawsuits, but apparently none in China; probably because it's virtually impossible as a foreigner to win a tort case against a Chinese company.

https://wiki.fsfe.org/Migrated/GPL%20Enforcement%20Cases

Re: TikTok streaming software is an illegal fork of OBS

#222

Post by duped » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 5:41 PM UTC

mmcgaha wrote: post #159

criddell wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might not be like this everywhere, but in the US all software engineers are self-labelled. It's not like medical doctor (MD) or professional engineer (PE) where the title actually implies some license to practice.

It has been many years since After The Gold Rush was published and we are no closer today than we were then. At some point software engineering will be a real profession but I doubt anyone will take action before some huge catastrophe pushes the issue.

I don't like the idea of gatekeeping, it's hard enough to hire people.

In the US we don't really have licensing for engineers (there is PE, but it's not anything close to ubiquitous). I think it's one of the best parts of our engineering/tech culture.

You're an engineer based on the skills you employ to solve the problems you do, not because some body of people gave you a slip of paper that says you can employ those skills to solve those problems.

Re: TikTok streaming software is an illegal fork of OBS

#223

Post by zardo » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 5:42 PM UTC

criddell wrote: post #168

mmcgaha wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has been many years since After The Gold Rush was published and we are no closer today than we were then. At some point software engineering will be a real profession but I doubt anyone will take action before some huge catastrophe pushes the issue.

I think you are right and it's too bad. There are some fields that should have it. For example, the software for self-driving cars should be signed off by a licensed engineer before it is allowed to go live. Many mechanical and electrical parts of the car have been designed by licensed professionals, why not the software?

> Many mechanical and electrical parts of the car have been designed by licensed professionals, why not the software?

Maybe some companies have some internal requirement for that, but generally speaking that's not true. Legal requirements for review and approval by a PE only apply to building drawings.

Re: TikTok streaming software is an illegal fork of OBS

#224

Post by dragonwriter » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 5:43 PM UTC

gunapologist99 wrote: post #221

The use of the word "illegal" seems problematic if this is a contractual dispute over (GPL) license terms. No one seems to be claiming that TikTok actually committed a criminal act (although, perhaps they did, if this was intentional as it appears, and TikTok is engaging in criminal-levels of distribution. Not a lawyer, so just speculating here.) It probably would have been better if the OP had said "violated the lic…

> The use of the word "illegal" seems problematic if this is a contractual dispute over (GPL) license terms

No, it's not.

> No one seems to be claiming that TikTok actually committed a criminal act

“Criminal” is not the same as “illegal”, the latter includes any violation of law whether or not it is criminal.

Re: TikTok streaming software is an illegal fork of OBS

#225

Post by gunapologist99 » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 5:44 PM UTC

throwaway473825 wrote: post #212

adventured wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US (and European) companies are typically a lot better about it, precisely because they fear lawsuits, they fear the consequences. China and its large companies don't fear lawsuits the way US corporations do. That's how Jack Ma was able to steal Alipay from Yahoo shareholders and laugh all the way to the bank, there were no consequences to worry about. It's why Yahoo capitulated in dealing with Alibaba as a major sha…

The Swedish bank oligopoly once illegally used Moxie Marlinespike's GPL code in their closed-source app: https://mobile.twitter.com/moxie/status/530252445725642752 They even refused to get in touch. Why would they when they have most Swedish political parties in their pocket? And that's in one of the world's least corrupt countries.

> Why would they when they have most Swedish political parties in their pocket? And that's in one of the world's least corrupt countries.

Political parties in your pocket literally defines political corruption.

Re: TikTok streaming software is an illegal fork of OBS

#226

Post by nnvvhh » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 5:46 PM UTC

gunapologist99 wrote: post #221

The use of the word "illegal" seems problematic if this is a contractual dispute over (GPL) license terms. No one seems to be claiming that TikTok actually committed a criminal act (although, perhaps they did, if this was intentional as it appears, and TikTok is engaging in criminal-levels of distribution. Not a lawyer, so just speculating here.) It probably would have been better if the OP had said "violated the lic…

Not complying with an open source license can be enforced as copyright infringement rather than a contractual dispute.

Re: TikTok streaming software is an illegal fork of OBS

#227

Post by vkat » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 5:46 PM UTC

delusional wrote: post #182

yumraj wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably they are employed at companies who are themselves violating GPL and have seen this being done there.

How do you think companies end up violating GPL. Maybe sometimes it's a heartless executive, but a lot of enterprise software devs are completely unconcerned with licenses. If they can get their hands on it, the license doesn't matter.

In all the enterprise companies I worked for we are drilled with required learning and assessments which often include training on software licenses. The aim of these training is devs to keep an eye for license and defer to someone higher up if in doubt. These processes are manual and catch only so much.

In companies with mature software processes there is always tooling that will block a release if it finds unacceptable license. To me it looks like TikTok hasn't properly invested in tooling and this somehow slipped.

Re: TikTok streaming software is an illegal fork of OBS

#228

Post by vkat » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 5:49 PM UTC

jermaustin1 wrote: post #220

delusional wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you think companies end up violating GPL. Maybe sometimes it's a heartless executive, but a lot of enterprise software devs are completely unconcerned with licenses. If they can get their hands on it, the license doesn't matter.

I had a senior dev at a past job who did this constantly. And when it was found out how much he actually stole, our entire team was laid off and replaced by the company that did the audit. He just refused to believe that software licenses were real. That and I dont think he could actually code anything from scratch without stealing large swaths of code from open source repositories.

Copy/paste without attribution to license or permission is more blatant.

Re: TikTok streaming software is an illegal fork of OBS

#229

Post by gunapologist99 » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 5:49 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #224

gunapologist99 wrote: post #221

The use of the word "illegal" seems problematic if this is a contractual dispute over (GPL) license terms. No one seems to be claiming that TikTok actually committed a criminal act (although, perhaps they did, if this was intentional as it appears, and TikTok is engaging in criminal-levels of distribution. Not a lawyer, so just speculating here.) It probably would have been better if the OP had said "violated the lic…

> The use of the word "illegal" seems problematic if this is a contractual dispute over (GPL) license terms No, it's not. > No one seems to be claiming that TikTok actually committed a criminal act “Criminal” is not the same as “illegal”, the latter includes any violation of law whether or not it is criminal.

This definitely looks like egregious and apparently intentional infringement, but violating the GPL is not violating a law in most countries; it's violating a license agreement. Contracts are not law. Therefore, violating the GPL by itself probably isn't illegal (but it could probably become illegal if other statutes, like CFAA or RICO were brought into play.)

If I violate deed restrictions on my property by building a shed, then that wouldn't be illegal per se; it'd simply be a breach of contract and the private organization could sue me for redress.

But, if I built that same shed in the middle of a public street, then that might be illegal and the city might have me arrested and prosecuted.

Re: TikTok streaming software is an illegal fork of OBS

#230

Post by gunapologist99 » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 5:49 PM UTC

nnvvhh wrote: post #226

gunapologist99 wrote: post #221

The use of the word "illegal" seems problematic if this is a contractual dispute over (GPL) license terms. No one seems to be claiming that TikTok actually committed a criminal act (although, perhaps they did, if this was intentional as it appears, and TikTok is engaging in criminal-levels of distribution. Not a lawyer, so just speculating here.) It probably would have been better if the OP had said "violated the lic…

Not complying with an open source license can be enforced as copyright infringement rather than a contractual dispute.

Please cite an example. Most countries' copyright law tips civil license agreement disputes back into the civil courts, not criminal, with relatively few exceptions.