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Judge rejects Purdue Pharma's $4.5B opioid settlement

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Re: Judge rejects Purdue Pharma's $4.5B opioid settlement

#81

Doctors prescribe drug -> pharmacy dispenses drug -> pharmacy orders from manufacturer. All I hear about is pharmacies and manufacturers getting sued, but why not doctors? Why do they seem to get off the hook when they are the main cause. Sure, Perdue marketed it to doctors (and I don't even see a way that pharmacies were responsible at all), but "I was manipulated by marketing" isn't a convincing defense from an exp…

Also, the producers pay he doctors and provide different insentives to make them prescribe their drugs.

Encourage, not make. And that makes all the difference. If you take the money, you take the responsibility with it.

Re: Judge rejects Purdue Pharma's $4.5B opioid settlement

#82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, the producers pay he doctors and provide different insentives to make them prescribe their drugs.

Encourage, not make. And that makes all the difference. If you take the money, you take the responsibility with it.

So, giving the money is not part of the problem? The responsibility of one of the sides does not relieve the other one from it.

Re: Judge rejects Purdue Pharma's $4.5B opioid settlement

#83

Doctors prescribe drug -> pharmacy dispenses drug -> pharmacy orders from manufacturer. All I hear about is pharmacies and manufacturers getting sued, but why not doctors? Why do they seem to get off the hook when they are the main cause. Sure, Perdue marketed it to doctors (and I don't even see a way that pharmacies were responsible at all), but "I was manipulated by marketing" isn't a convincing defense from an exp…

I think doctors were directly lied to that those drugs are non-addictive.

This is the part that I don't get. There must have been hundreds of papers on oxycodone done by Perdue, and other people. You would think that lying just couldn't get you to where you need to be for this, at least not without it being obvious that you were doing it. Like, I can see making up data for one paper, or getting a few legit publications via statistical outliers, but I don't see how you manufacture a whole industry level consensus.

Re: Judge rejects Purdue Pharma's $4.5B opioid settlement

#85
Hmm. There are five drug classes for controlled substances and oxycontin was always a class 2 narcotic which carries the second highest risk of being abused. I don't think most doctors/pharmacist really bought into the idea there was zero chance of abuse. I think in the beginning Richard Sackler the best intentions (by Creating a successful drug and racking in a bunch of money and there is no crime in that)but ended getting in way over his head leading to Purdue spiral out of control. I don't believe he created the opiod pandemic but he certainly played a role in it. But as Al Pacinos character says in scarface, "You need people like me so you can point your fckn’ fingers and say, “That’s the bad guy.” And that guy happened to he Richard Sackler

Re: Judge rejects Purdue Pharma's $4.5B opioid settlement

#86

Hmm. There are five drug classes for controlled substances and oxycontin was always a class 2 narcotic which carries the second highest risk of being abused. I don't think most doctors/pharmacist really bought into the idea there was zero chance of abuse. I think in the beginning Richard Sackler the best intentions (by Creating a successful drug and racking in a bunch of money and there is no crime in that)but ended…

"I don't think most doctors/pharmacist really bought into the idea there was zero chance of abuse."

APPENDIX TO WILLIAM S. BURROUGHS Naked Lunch : Burroughs quote in The British Journal of Addiction, Vol 53, No.2

"LETTER FROM A MASTER ADDICT TO DANGEROUS DRUGS (August 3rd, 1956. Venice (p. 189, Paladin 1992 ed.):"

"I have Taken morphine for acute pain. Any opiate that effectively relieves pain to an equal degree relieves withdrawal symptoms. The conclusion is obvious: Any opiate that relieves pain is habit forming, and the more effectively it relieves pain the more habit forming it is. ..."

William Burroughs.

There is no argument about this and there hasn't been any for about at least a century or more. This is medicine/pharmacy 101 stuff.

All those who thought/think otherwise are fools and should not be anywhere near such decision-making processes. Those qualified in pharmacy or medicine and involved in the pushing and peddling of oxycontin had to know EXACTLY what they were doing - that's to say the serious damage they were doing to patients' health not to mention the deaths - the 65-year old Burroughs quote being the scientific orodoxy in hundreds of medical and pharmacopeia texts.

Burroughs, an opiate addict for 15 years, is one of the most articulate drug users to have written on the matter of opiate addiction and the fact that his descriptions of the addictiveness of opioids has been widely published for decades in the popular press meant that not just the professions knew the details intimately but also that everyone did.

Nothing that Purdue or the Shacklers can say or do can absolve them from their responsibility for the deaths of over 800,000 people - a truly staggering number.

The original settlement was a fucking farce of the first order. Why the Shacklers weren't stripped of everything they own then locked up and the key thrown away simply amazes me. What's wrong with US justice that it can fail so terribly? Here, justice is nothing other than a joke - a joke run and told by the accused.

Moreover, what went wrong with the medical profession and the regulators? Why was the FDA AWOL on this matter for decades - a matter with very well known and long-honed parameters?

After all, the matter of narcotics and addiction is the subject of international treaties. We all know the issues and yet it still happened.

The Purdue, Sacklers and oxycontin matter is one of the greatest failures of public health of all time: a tragedy of unprecedented proportions - and as far as I can determine, no one - except the dead - have paid any penalty whatsoever.

Re: Judge rejects Purdue Pharma's $4.5B opioid settlement

#88
post #46

Quoted post unavailable.

"I find these two positions very hard to re-conciliate"

Same as per vmception's comments.

Also, what you need to realize is that opiate drugs are almost unique amongst drugs. There are staggering numbers of them in different classes - oral, injectable, short/long-acting etc.

The tragedy is that they're all addictive and the degree of their addictiveness is directly proportional their effectiveness at reducing pain (see Burroughs's perceptive quote in my post).

Thus, titrating the right dose and determining the period for which the drug should be given becomes a very difficult tightrope act, especially so if a long period is involved. Give too little and the patient suffers pain, give even a little too much and addiction is very likely the result. It's a nightmarish problem.

Opiates are the Janus of drugs - one face shows a miracle drug - the other is unmitigated pain and tragedy - and often death.

The issue here is that Purdue deliberately peddled oxycontin, a drug that can be taken by mouth, in ways that encouraged patients to easily slip into the 'too much' side. That this should never happen without supervision is a longstanding axiom of opiate management and has been known and well understood for over one hundred years.

In essence, Purdue and the Shacklers deliberately chucked away years of best practice which then benefited them financially but to the patients' devastating expense.

The matter of what drugs should be legalized etc. is somewhat different matter (which others have covered well so I won't address it except to say that they're not logically in conflict as they address different things).

Re: Judge rejects Purdue Pharma's $4.5B opioid settlement

#89
post #46

Quoted post unavailable.

Pharma has a higher obligations to ensure they don't abuse their perceived authority. Think of it as say a cop commit 1st degree murder vs a hobbo doing it the same. Everyone I know of would prescribe that cop with steeper sentence while not so for hobbo and some would pity. Of course in actual reality rarely cop would get that while a hobbo in every multiverse would have higher chances getting convicted. Pharma in general will actively exploit all legal avenue to sell you their drugs. Some even skirt the boundary of illegality. With enough influence, they can outright do wrong things KNOWINGLY. And it is these set differences that elicit people to seemingly have that contradictory response when it comes to "drugs should be legal and available".

Re: Judge rejects Purdue Pharma's $4.5B opioid settlement

#90
post #46

Quoted post unavailable.

Do some more reading on what Purdue actually did. The point of legalization is to have high quality drugs and high quality information about those drugs. Purdue created drugs, sure, and then they launched what can only be described as information warfare on our country.

"...they launched what can only be described as information warfare on our country."

Yeah, exactly. As I've hinted in my posts, given the millions of pages on opiate info gathered over the last 150 or so years, the many laws in every country, international treaties on drugs then how did this information warfare happen?

As I've said, the FDA was AWOL, so was the medical profession.

How on earth did this happen? Distorting scientific fact to the extent that almost all professionals ignored the problem has to be very serious, somewhat akin to the climate change denial methinks.

We really do need to work on the psychology of how this happened. Right, this happened so easily it will almost certainly happen again.

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