The Web3 Fraud • Hacker News Board

Re: The Web3 Fraud

#301

Post by da-x » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 4:08 PM UTC

zer01 wrote: post #243

Misdicorl wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless there is a killer feature it enables, it's an implementation detail and I don't care. And I will gladly compare other solutions against blockchain despite not having the same implementation detail you claim puts it above comparison. And so will everyone else that isn't blinded by fanaticism.

Right, so what's happening right now is much more akin to the early days of the internet than anything else IMO. In the same ways we couldn't have ever predicted Facebook, Google, iPhones, etc, in the 90s it's hard to say exactly what impact crypto/web3 will have on the modern world. There's actually something truly new and tangible that crypto has spurred - the ability to drive consensus in a trustless manner automa…

> a trustless manner automatically and the ability to execute computer programs that are deterministic, immutable, and will run forever.

Let's try to think quite ahead, going sci-fi even:

Maybe the only use case for such programs is valid if they are powerful AIs, or uploaded human minds. But for the blockchain to be able to run that? The compute and memory needed is astronomical. It also means that blockchain will be relevant technology only in the 22nd century and now we are just playing with it for no actual value whatsoever.

Because, how else would I ensure that my uploaded mind from year 2060 henceforth runs forever in the cloud? I can't, the 22nd century equivalent AWS may be shutdown. Solution - blockchain...

Re: The Web3 Fraud

#302

Post by mattwilsonn888 » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 4:11 PM UTC

Misdicorl wrote: post #59

v64 wrote: post #13

Many criticisms of blockchain apps, comparing their use cases to conventional technologies (databases, conventional separation of services such as that described in the article, etc) all seem to miss a major point: Dapps running on the blockchain are immutable and highly resistant to being shutdown. Immutability is important because it's guaranteed that no matter how many times you interact with a contract address, y…

Unless there is a killer feature it enables, it's an implementation detail and I don't care. And I will gladly compare other solutions against blockchain despite not having the same implementation detail you claim puts it above comparison. And so will everyone else that isn't blinded by fanaticism.

Everyone that says "show me it doing its end goal and I'll buy," are simply the most risk off speculators. I don't think they even know what speculation means or why someone would do it.

Re: The Web3 Fraud

#303

Post by mattwilsonn888 » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 4:14 PM UTC

DannyBee wrote: post #50

v64 wrote: post #13

Many criticisms of blockchain apps, comparing their use cases to conventional technologies (databases, conventional separation of services such as that described in the article, etc) all seem to miss a major point: Dapps running on the blockchain are immutable and highly resistant to being shutdown. Immutability is important because it's guaranteed that no matter how many times you interact with a contract address, y…

The problem you cite doesn't seem so common, or so large, that it is worth changing literally the entire architecture of everything over. Maybe it will be someday, but it definitely isn't today, nor does it seem to be happening particularly soon! Until developers feel like that day is coming, this neither makes sense, nor will it go anywhere. (as an aside, the non-payment one seems kind of silly, since the blockchain…

You are implying the false pretense that the person you are replying to is arguing that Web3 technology is being properly valued and therefore should be used right now! What an easy strawman to knock over - what they are actually saying is that the vision and promise of this emerging technology layer has obvious value compared to today's standard. Man that latter statement is a real thinker in comparison.

Re: The Web3 Fraud

#304

Post by mattwilsonn888 » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 4:16 PM UTC

H8crilA wrote: post #37

v64 wrote: post #13

Many criticisms of blockchain apps, comparing their use cases to conventional technologies (databases, conventional separation of services such as that described in the article, etc) all seem to miss a major point: Dapps running on the blockchain are immutable and highly resistant to being shutdown. Immutability is important because it's guaranteed that no matter how many times you interact with a contract address, y…

This is great, but I don't need it at 10^9 times the cost. Imagine if a single red apple costed about $100M, yet it had rather unique qualities such as indisputable, provable lack of contamination. That's the kind of cost difference we're talking about here.

Now you're comparing apple seeds to apple trees. That seems to me ten to the something times more ignorant than comparing an apple to an orange.

Re: The Web3 Fraud

#305

Post by mattwilsonn888 » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 4:23 PM UTC

paxys wrote: post #179

selestify wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well yes, you either play whack-a-mole with every single IPFS server, or you live with it, because you have no choice. Like I've said elsewhere, this is "for better or for worse," depending on your political sensibilities. Again, I think Tor is a good example here. Lots of CP on Tor, or so I hear. But also persecuted journalists and whistleblowers, and safer drugs than you'd find on the streets. You can't realistical…

So then the ceiling of adoption for this entire ecosystem is Tor or BitTorrent at best. Far cry from the "next internet" it is being touted as.

Why would that be a good comparison? If Tor offered comparable services to crypto then we wouldn't be talking about crypto as something different and more advanced than Tor, which it fundamentally is.

Re: The Web3 Fraud

#306

Post by mattwilsonn888 » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 4:26 PM UTC

mwattsun wrote: post #42

v64 wrote: post #13

Many criticisms of blockchain apps, comparing their use cases to conventional technologies (databases, conventional separation of services such as that described in the article, etc) all seem to miss a major point: Dapps running on the blockchain are immutable and highly resistant to being shutdown. Immutability is important because it's guaranteed that no matter how many times you interact with a contract address, y…

> opens up possibilities for your app to be shut down Is this a big worry for a lot of people or is just one of the possible things that can go wrong incidental to doing business, like a traffic ticket is to driving?

Not being able to shut down an app is important when money is involved - otherwise you could lock up tokens in a contract, shut it down, and never be able to retrieve them.

Re: The Web3 Fraud

#307

Post by mattwilsonn888 » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 4:28 PM UTC

paxys wrote: post #99

v64 wrote: post #13

Many criticisms of blockchain apps, comparing their use cases to conventional technologies (databases, conventional separation of services such as that described in the article, etc) all seem to miss a major point: Dapps running on the blockchain are immutable and highly resistant to being shutdown. Immutability is important because it's guaranteed that no matter how many times you interact with a contract address, y…

> Dapps running on the blockchain are immutable and highly resistant to being shutdown I have tried my best to read up on how all this is supposed to work but have come up blank. Is there a simple explanation - using zero buzzwords - of how I can run a site in the way you describe in the Web3 world?

If you took all the Web3 hype and aspirations for technical specifications of what is possible today, you have mistook the schematics for the build. Its very early, and if you want to do what you ask you will have to do more work, just like you would in 1995.

Re: The Web3 Fraud

#308

Post by acdha » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 4:35 PM UTC

selestify wrote: post #300

acdha wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m looking for something useful, not validation. It’d be great if there was something to show for all of that money and time.

And this is something very useful. There's been a lot to show for the last decade of crypto development. It's just not useful for you . Which I understand. Not everything is for everyone. But you seem incapable of understanding that it's useful for many who are not you.

> But you seem incapable of understanding that it's useful for many who are not you.

Then why can't you provide examples which are useful for things other than moving cryptocurrency tokens around? When the web started, sure some of the pages were talking about the web and how to build new things with it, but most of the things people were putting online were using the web to make were related to their hobbies, professional interests, politics, etc. and simply using it as a communications medium.

More crassly, why do I not hear anyone saying it's useful unless they have a personal financial stake in me buying their tokens? The closest past event I remember seeing was during the dotcom era when day-traders would talk up stocks without being able to say what a company did or why they were a good bet.

Re: The Web3 Fraud

#309

Post by mattwilsonn888 » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 4:36 PM UTC

QuadrupleA wrote: post #141

I once had a lot of excitement about it, but the closer I looked at and used "web3" tech the more I came to the conclusion this is all a big pump and dump scheme. What's crypto been good for in its 10+ year span? Financing terrorism and ransomware, selling meaningless jpeg certificates of ownership, ICO scams, totally empty and greedy "number go up" speculation consuming the money and attention of potentially creativ…

You are incredibly confused like many on this site. Confused about the difference between marketing and actual technology. You've basically stepped into a metaphorical convention center with no aid for beginners, been hit with 99 sale's pitches that are genuinely empty and made the conclusion that the whole industry is a scam without realizing that your inability to discern the 1% of actual value makes you conflate aggressive false advertising with the entire space's promise.

Re: The Web3 Fraud

#310

Post by _aavaa_ » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 4:38 PM UTC

endisneigh wrote: post #95

_aavaa_ wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entire point is to remove the trusted entity. To build a way of doing things that isn’t dependent on trusted entities to work. That’s it.

Seems like a tautology- the things built will inherently be centralized

I don't see the tautology.

I think we can analogize to open source and closed source software: "I don’t understand what problem [web3] can solve that [a trusted entity] cannot."

"I don’t understand what problem [open source software] can solve that [close source software maintained by a well funded and benevolant company] cannot."

A point of open source software isn't that it can create software that would be impossible given the correct closed-source company, the point is to not be beholden to them in the first place. You want to make a change to the software, make it. It's your right.

The same idea for web3. Want to make an application to do something and accept payments for it? Release it as a dapp and charge for each interaction. Nobody can stop you from doing that.

As for the second part, "the things built will inherently be centralized". I'm not sure what you mean. The dapp gets published, you can now interact with it and it doesn't run on any one specific machine. The interaction consists of you and the dapp (and the miners who adds your transaction to the chain). What part is centralized?