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Job Applicant Resumes Are Effectively Impossible to De-Gender

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Re: Job Applicant Resumes Are Effectively Impossible to De-Gender

#91

Post by everforward »

bellyfullofbac wrote: post #28
skinkestek wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We happily take anyone qualified and I get my bonus. But as mentioned, percentage of female employees is a KPI and it makes my boss looks good and it makes the CEO happy in all hands meetings.

My properties ensure that I won't face quotas that would be a barrier for emplyoment (well maybe my gender, I'm male), so, I'm just curious, so what if there's one position to fill, the male candidate scores 60%, and the female one scores 58% (using my hypothetical ranking system which actually works and is fair, etc, etc), so just slightly lower. Would your company pick the female candidate in this case? I guess ans…

Not OP, but I've seen some of this (though not terribly often). I don't think I've ever seen it come to a head and be explicitly about an attribute like that. I think that would make a lot of people uncomfortable.

Usually what I see is faster movement through the recruiting pipeline. In your case, the woman scores 58% a week before the man takes the test. There's no overt pressure to just accept her score and move on. She's just here, qualified, and ready to save us from having to do more interviews haha.

I don't have a poignant take on whether that's a good or bad thing. It definitely feels better than how I imagine having to pick between the two would, thought it still feels discriminatory. Then again, diversity in some sectors is low, so perhaps it makes sense for the hiring pipeline to give them some form of advantage, and this might be the least bad option.

The whole thing is a mess of moral ambiguity.

Re: Job Applicant Resumes Are Effectively Impossible to De-Gender

#92

Post by BoorishBears »

Zababa wrote: post #65
BoorishBears wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm racist and sexist (against myself) for accurately pointing out the trend where a white male dominated industry normalized drinking in the office and how that affected their definition of "culture"? https://tech.co/news/tech-workplace-drinking-culture-2019-02 Or are you just insecure about your own biases.

I don't have an opinion on either side of this debate, but your link is based on a "survey with more than 1000 responders" that seems to be about the current state of things. It also doesn't talk about volume, just drinking as if every drinking is the same. I don't think it supports your claims.

It's not supporting my claims without asking critical thinking of the reader, that's a tough ask I know...

There are more studies than you could ask for showing we hire people we'd like to hang out with: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/11/121129093008.h...

Alcohol is one thing that caught traction in the "tech bro ecosystem".

So put two and two together and what do you get?

https://www.wired.com/2016/12/techs-alcohol-soaked-culture-i...

https://www.softwareiseasypeoplearehard.com/does-the-tech-in...

https://www.forbes.com/sites/csr/2011/03/18/drinking-at-work...

https://technical.ly/philly/2016/05/02/alcohol-tech-events/

https://www.teamgather.co/blog/ping-pong-tables-and-beer-keg...

https://www.huntonlaborblog.com/2019/01/articles/employment-...

HN is the only place people would actually pretend alcohol is not part of the tech-bro persona lol.

Can't admit there's a problem right?

At least in the last few years people have realized it's a bad idea. All those pesky HR department and their "inclusion" and "drinking culture shouldn't replace a work culture" noise amiright?

Re: Job Applicant Resumes Are Effectively Impossible to De-Gender

#93

Post by ecf »

BoorishBears wrote: post #35
geraldwhen wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have quotas we need to fill. Hiring a white male is basically a nonstarter without prostrating yourself before HR

This isn't something to claim without elaborating. You're saying your company won't hire white males without extenuating circumstances? I'd love to see the incredibly diverse teams there then... or is this a case of your company used to not hire non-whites and now they're trying to play catch up so they can beat a drum about DNI, meanwhile the culture that lead to a lack of diversity marches on internally?

> I’d love to see the incredibly diverse teams there then…

This is exactly the line of thinking that causes the aforementioned reluctance to hire yet another white male.

Re: Job Applicant Resumes Are Effectively Impossible to De-Gender

#94

Post by Bromeo »

throwawayay02 wrote: post #29

The obsession with equality (of outcome) is a blight upon our world.

What about this is promoting equality of outcome? The paper is investigating whether information preventing equality of opportunity can be successfully obfuscated.

Re: Job Applicant Resumes Are Effectively Impossible to De-Gender

#95

Post by Bromeo »

Aeolun wrote: post #22
c0balt wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But to which level? Basic automation, i.e. sorting by proficency is not really done better by a human than machine. The problem doesn't lie in automation but how we apply it. Don't blame the tool, blame the user. I think there is a lot of room for removing overautomation and creating transparency. Though just outright abandoning automation would hurt even more since human routines are even harder to evaluate/ make tr…

If you have too many CV’s to look at, you can simply trash a random set (or automatically send a rejection email), then look at the remainder. You should still have roughly the same ratio of skilled candidates.

To still have the same ratio of skilled candidates would mean the automatic rejection has zero merit. For example, what about filtering for a minimum of x years of work experience for a senior position? Surely your ratio of skilled and appropriate candidates will increase.

Re: Job Applicant Resumes Are Effectively Impossible to De-Gender

#96

Post by gopher_space »

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #75
geraldwhen wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have quotas we need to fill. Hiring a white male is basically a nonstarter without prostrating yourself before HR

That sucks to hear as a white male but I still put the responsibility on myself. I should be so good at my job that they don't care that I'm a white male.

The context here is that applicants are overwhelmingly white and male. Most of the time it won't matter because you're the only category in the pool.

Re: Job Applicant Resumes Are Effectively Impossible to De-Gender

#97

Post by Zababa »

BoorishBears wrote: post #92
Zababa wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have an opinion on either side of this debate, but your link is based on a "survey with more than 1000 responders" that seems to be about the current state of things. It also doesn't talk about volume, just drinking as if every drinking is the same. I don't think it supports your claims.

It's not supporting my claims without asking critical thinking of the reader, that's a tough ask I know... There are more studies than you could ask for showing we hire people we'd like to hang out with: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/11/121129093008.h... Alcohol is one thing that caught traction in the "tech bro ecosystem". So put two and two together and what do you get? https://www.wired.com/2016/12/te…

I've never worked in the US, and don't live there. I don't think asking for more evidence than a comment and a survey of 1000 people in a sector at least a million of people is a display of a lack of critical thinking. In fact I'd say it's quite the opposite. You talked about the last 2 decades, yet nothing in the article talked about that too. The articles you linked there are more substential.

I personally live in France. I don't know about the tech industry as a whole, but drinking is the was young adults socialize. I personally don't drink much, so I know how it feels to have people pressuring you to drink more every time you're at a social event.

I understand that it's the internet, that you don't know me and that you probably faced plenty of people pretending to be neutral while they were trying to refute what you said, but this wasn't the case here.

Re: Job Applicant Resumes Are Effectively Impossible to De-Gender

#98

Post by Zababa »

yjftsjthsd-h wrote: post #67
Zababa wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would call it "pattern recognition" rather than "cargo culting". Cargo culting is an example where pattern recognition fails.

I mean. This seems like a good example of pattern recognition probably failing?

That depends on how you measure it. It accurately reproduced how previous recruiters worked, but this approach might not be the best. The thing here is that the metric "the best candidate" is very hard to find, so people use the metric "candidate that were previously recruited". I would call it an instance of the "streelight effect": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streetlight_effect

Re: Job Applicant Resumes Are Effectively Impossible to De-Gender

#99

Post by gromitss »

Draiken wrote: post #31
geraldwhen wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have quotas we need to fill. Hiring a white male is basically a nonstarter without prostrating yourself before HR

This reads to me as it's okay to discriminate as long as it's for the "right group". I honestly feel a bit sick about all this. Maybe it's the only way, but it doesn't feel like it is from my perspective.

It’s an attempt at leveling the playing field. It’s been so skewed for so long that society is willing to overlook the lack of literal egalitarianism in this situation. It’s a David vs Goliath analogue.

Re: Job Applicant Resumes Are Effectively Impossible to De-Gender

#100

Post by BoorishBears »

Zababa wrote: post #97
BoorishBears wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not supporting my claims without asking critical thinking of the reader, that's a tough ask I know... There are more studies than you could ask for showing we hire people we'd like to hang out with: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/11/121129093008.h... Alcohol is one thing that caught traction in the "tech bro ecosystem". So put two and two together and what do you get? https://www.wired.com/2016/12/te…

I've never worked in the US, and don't live there. I don't think asking for more evidence than a comment and a survey of 1000 people in a sector at least a million of people is a display of a lack of critical thinking. In fact I'd say it's quite the opposite. You talked about the last 2 decades, yet nothing in the article talked about that too. The articles you linked there are more substential. I personally live in…

I stopped reading at the first line. The comment is about the US, the comments I replied to are about the US.

I frankly don't care about your perspective as an outsider, these aren't your problems or struggles you don't know them or understand them.

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