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Refugees lack Covid shots because drugmakers fear lawsuits, documents show

reuters.com

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Re: Refugees lack Covid shots because drugmakers fear lawsuits, documents show

#51

Post by roenxi »

jjeaff wrote: post #22
landemva wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'all evidence points at the treatment being better than the disease'. I had it and have Dr. letter that says so. I now have sterilizing immunity. The jab does not provide sterilizing immunity, so it is not better for me nor my family. I am not jabbed, and will not get jabbed. While I am just one, I invalidate your use of the word 'all'.

I have seen little evidence that having previously had COVID gives you sterilizing immunity. Some evidence it gives you better immunity than the vaccine but now more evidence coming out that points to the vaccine being better.

If he doesn't have sterelising immunity, how can he have recovered from COVID? He'd still have the coronavirus.

For a body to fight off cornavirus the immune system has to have reached a state of sterelising immunity, otherwise the coronavirus would just keep jumping back and forward between family members. And that immunity will probably decay at about the same speed as any vaccine.

Re: Refugees lack Covid shots because drugmakers fear lawsuits, documents show

#52

Post by simonh »

waihtis wrote: post #24
sonicggg wrote: post #11

I see a lot of complaints of people about the fact that Pfizer required legal immunity against side effects. This is a must for any vaccine manufacturer, otherwise the vaccine is just not commercially feasible. That's what killed Lymerix, and why we don't have Lyme disease vaccine anymore. If the government does not back it up, the manufacturer won't stand a chance. Even if the vaccine has a good safety profile, a 0.…

Fine, but now we have two extra phenomena with the COVID vaccine: 1) Discussion about vaccine side effects, efficacy rates, etc. is being actively censored (e.g. Twitter's ridiculous post censorship policy) 2) Governments pushing for a mandatory vaccine If one doesn't think this creates a very dangerous precedent one does not understand history nor human nature at all.

Yes it’s a dangerous precedent. So we need to quantify the relative dangers. Hundreds of thousands, and potentially many millions of dead Americans one one hand right now, against a precedent that might be abused in future in theory. It depends how much confidence we have in democracy in America.

The US had a debate and had elections even during the pandemic. Decisions about these issues are being made at state and federal level, informed by broad and local public opinion. That’s the system working.

Re: Refugees lack Covid shots because drugmakers fear lawsuits, documents show

#53

Post by dilap »

sonicggg wrote: post #11

I see a lot of complaints of people about the fact that Pfizer required legal immunity against side effects. This is a must for any vaccine manufacturer, otherwise the vaccine is just not commercially feasible. That's what killed Lymerix, and why we don't have Lyme disease vaccine anymore. If the government does not back it up, the manufacturer won't stand a chance. Even if the vaccine has a good safety profile, a 0.…

Yet J&J was willing to waive immunity?

Re: Refugees lack Covid shots because drugmakers fear lawsuits, documents show

#54

Post by pelasaco »

libertine wrote: post #50
pelasaco wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question is which country must back this up? US? Germany? All countries in the World? To some context: https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/sep/10/p...

Each contract has it's own terms, one of the cause for delays within the EU was due to some of those legal terms. USA and UK waved a lot of responsibilities. If it's shared liability, for example, in the EU it would be both EU and Pfizer that would back this up.

At least in Germany, the state wasn't back in it up. It may have changed now. But when the first Astrazeneca problems popped up, the answer was "you did it knowing the risks, when you signed up for it".

Reference:

https://www.tagesschau.de/inland/gesellschaft/haftungimpfsch...

Re: Refugees lack Covid shots because drugmakers fear lawsuits, documents show

#55

Post by walterbell »

Oct 2021, https://www.citizen.org/article/pfizers-power/

> Public Citizen has identified several unredacted Pfizer contracts that ... offer a rare glimpse into the power one pharmaceutical corporation has gained to silence governments, throttle supply, shift risk and maximize profits in the worst public health crisis in a century. We describe six examples from around the world below.

Re: Refugees lack Covid shots because drugmakers fear lawsuits, documents show

#56

Post by simonh »

libertine wrote: post #50
pelasaco wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question is which country must back this up? US? Germany? All countries in the World? To some context: https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/sep/10/p...

Each contract has it's own terms, one of the cause for delays within the EU was due to some of those legal terms. USA and UK waved a lot of responsibilities. If it's shared liability, for example, in the EU it would be both EU and Pfizer that would back this up.

> USA and UK waved a lot of responsibilities.

Brit here. I’m not intending to be argumentative, you’re right, but I’d prefer to put it a bit differently. The British government chose to take on responsibility for ordering and using the vaccines. We did our testing, contracted the drug companies to do a job to standards we set, and paid them for it. If a mistake was made, it’s on us. I have no problem with that.

Now, if the drug companies lied, or failed to live up to their contracts, that’s a different story. But if they did the job we asked in good faith, we’ll, that’s fine.

Contrast with the OxyContin debacle in the US. Those people lied, concealed evidence, conspired and goodness knows what else. They deserve the full force of the law. I am in no way advocating blanket liability waivers for drug companies.

Re: Refugees lack Covid shots because drugmakers fear lawsuits, documents show

#57

Post by reindeer76 »

simonh wrote: post #52
waihtis wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fine, but now we have two extra phenomena with the COVID vaccine: 1) Discussion about vaccine side effects, efficacy rates, etc. is being actively censored (e.g. Twitter's ridiculous post censorship policy) 2) Governments pushing for a mandatory vaccine If one doesn't think this creates a very dangerous precedent one does not understand history nor human nature at all.

Yes it’s a dangerous precedent. So we need to quantify the relative dangers. Hundreds of thousands, and potentially many millions of dead Americans one one hand right now, against a precedent that might be abused in future in theory. It depends how much confidence we have in democracy in America. The US had a debate and had elections even during the pandemic. Decisions about these issues are being made at state and f…

>Hundreds of thousands, and potentially many millions of dead Americans one one hand right now

whose average age is greater than the life expectancy.

But sure, let's discard our free society to prolong their lives by a bit. If history tells us anything, it's that free society is a stable attractor, so I'm sure we'll get it back in no time, right guys?

Re: Refugees lack Covid shots because drugmakers fear lawsuits, documents show

#58

Post by lmm »

roenxi wrote: post #51
jjeaff wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have seen little evidence that having previously had COVID gives you sterilizing immunity. Some evidence it gives you better immunity than the vaccine but now more evidence coming out that points to the vaccine being better.

If he doesn't have sterelising immunity, how can he have recovered from COVID? He'd still have the coronavirus. For a body to fight off cornavirus the immune system has to have reached a state of sterelising immunity, otherwise the coronavirus would just keep jumping back and forward between family members. And that immunity will probably decay at about the same speed as any vaccine.

> If he doesn't have sterelising immunity, how can he have recovered from COVID? He'd still have the coronavirus.

Like any other situation where someone has non-sterilising immunity, his body may have been able to eliminate the disease without fully preventing the virus from reproducing.

Re: Refugees lack Covid shots because drugmakers fear lawsuits, documents show

#59

Post by lmm »

bostik wrote: post #30
jgod wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do I get the same thing going for my software? That is, to get it mandated or legislated that people have to buy it (preferably multiple times: subscription). And no matter what happens, I can't be held liable or pay damages. Sounds like a very solid business model.

Become an AV vendor. A good one. Entire sections of business are (for all intents and purposes) legally required to run up-to-date AV products on all their Windows endpoints.

You mean a good one in regard to the business, right? Because that seems to have very little to do with producing a good AV product.

Re: Refugees lack Covid shots because drugmakers fear lawsuits, documents show

#60

Post by simonh »

reindeer76 wrote: post #57
simonh wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes it’s a dangerous precedent. So we need to quantify the relative dangers. Hundreds of thousands, and potentially many millions of dead Americans one one hand right now, against a precedent that might be abused in future in theory. It depends how much confidence we have in democracy in America. The US had a debate and had elections even during the pandemic. Decisions about these issues are being made at state and f…

>Hundreds of thousands, and potentially many millions of dead Americans one one hand right now whose average age is greater than the life expectancy. But sure, let's discard our free society to prolong their lives by a bit. If history tells us anything, it's that free society is a stable attractor, so I'm sure we'll get it back in no time, right guys?

The analysis on years of life lost, including reduced life expectancy in those with long covid, has actually been done.

>Conclusion: More than 28 million excess years of life were lost in 2020 in 31 countries, with a higher rate in men than women.

Yes the chances of young people dying is individually very low, and gets tiny for the very young, but for example in Brazil it’s estimated that about 500 babies died due to complications from coronavirus exposure, and many thousands of toddlers. Those small percentages, multiplied by big enough numbers, still add up.

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