The Web3 Fraud • Hacker News Board

Re: The Web3 Fraud

#31

Post by post_from_work » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 4:49 AM UTC

throwaway2048 wrote: post #3

vmception wrote: post #2

What if you just dropped all the ideology speak and just called them platforms? Theyre open finance platforms. Everyone building bullshit on Shopify’s platform is the exact audience that would be better off building on an open finance platform (the shopify apps that are sold to merchants). That crowd just wants to launch a product, have users, and make money passively. Thats what defi builders are doing on web3 platf…

Better in what sense? Its extremely difficult to actually use cryptocurrency for selling things beyond cryptocurrency related instruments. You need both your vendors and your customers to be able to easily transfer money in and out, and as things stand, that's an absolutely massive pain in the ass compared to using USD, and approximately nobody does it. But that is only the start of the problems, not factoring in thi…

>>>Better in what sense? Its extremely difficult to actually use cryptocurrency for selling things beyond cryptocurrency related instruments.

https://cryptoemporium.eu/

https://www.chainbytes.com/

Sell physical assets for crypto, then cash out at a Crypto ATM in your currency of choice, if you absolutely need to. A big part of the problem is Crypto ATMs aren't prolific enough. Restrictions on money-handling businesses come into play there, which is argued as anti-terrorism/organized crime measures but is really just gatekeeping/rent-seeking by the established players.

Re: The Web3 Fraud

#32

Post by Animats » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 4:49 AM UTC

endisneigh wrote: post #5

I don’t understand what problem web3 can solve that a trusted entity cannot. And let’s keep in mind your reply to this comment will be using a trusted entity. In fact in the history of the internet I cannot find a single example of any technology working better in a decentralized fashion compared to centralized for the end user

In fact in the history of the internet I cannot find a single example of any technology working better in a decentralized fashion compared to centralized for the end user

Usenet.

Re: The Web3 Fraud

#33

Post by sbazerque » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 4:50 AM UTC

Forget blockchains. TCP/IP, BGP, DNS, etc. they are all fantastic. What they give us is _connectivity_.

The problem is commerce (Amazon et al), search (Google), social (Facebook), etc. or, in general, the information layer built on top. David Clark said (in 1992!)

"The network as an Information Mesh. An old goal, not yet achieved."

The information theoretic and algorithmic ideas have matured (in no small part due to cryptocurrencies, yes, among other things).It's time to build that information mesh. I want a social identity that's not tied to a particular product/company. I want to shop online using a distributed protocol where reputation is independent of the platform. I want a search engine that can validate the identity and verify the integrity of the content it indexes. We can build such a thing now.

Re: The Web3 Fraud

#34

Post by fabrice_d » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 4:50 AM UTC

ar7hur wrote: post #10

This article misses the point, it sees web3 decentralization as purely technical and makes performance comparisons with existing systems. The power of web3 decentralization is about control, not more powerful computing. Yes your raspberry pi runs faster than the EVM, but can you give me any guarantee about what code it runs?

You could, if the code came from a signed blob that is verified. No need for a blockchain to allow that, it's basically what Mobile OSes are doing, and with multisig you can verify both the developer and the OS vendor.

Re: The Web3 Fraud

#35

Post by menzoic » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 4:51 AM UTC

bawolff wrote: post #16

endisneigh wrote: post #5

I don’t understand what problem web3 can solve that a trusted entity cannot. And let’s keep in mind your reply to this comment will be using a trusted entity. In fact in the history of the internet I cannot find a single example of any technology working better in a decentralized fashion compared to centralized for the end user

the value proposition of all the crypto nonsense is that some people don't like trusted entities. I tend to think its not worth the trade off (and the "decentralization" is questionable in practise), but this line of criticism is basically begging the question.

>the value proposition of all the crypto nonsense is that some people don't like trusted entities.

Becoming a trusted entity is hard. Crypto allows for the creation of systems that don't require trusted entites. That's a huge win for the little guy and catalyst for innovation.

Re: The Web3 Fraud

#36

Post by ashtonkem » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 4:51 AM UTC

smt88 wrote: post #12

amluto wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it’s fairly easy to use “cryptocurrency” to pay for things, e.g. if you have a cryptocurrency-denominated account at the same provider as your vendor. This is, of course, not open finance in any meaningful respect.

It's easy-ish (far harder than using a credit card), but it's also: - possible the transaction won't happen immediately or happen at all - extremely expensive - stupid (if you expect your particular cryptocurrency to increase in value over time) - missing all the protections and benefits of a credit card

- Introduces exchange risk and tax complexities for most merchants.

Re: The Web3 Fraud

#37

Post by H8crilA » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 4:51 AM UTC

v64 wrote: post #13

Many criticisms of blockchain apps, comparing their use cases to conventional technologies (databases, conventional separation of services such as that described in the article, etc) all seem to miss a major point: Dapps running on the blockchain are immutable and highly resistant to being shutdown. Immutability is important because it's guaranteed that no matter how many times you interact with a contract address, y…

This is great, but I don't need it at 10^9 times the cost.

Imagine if a single red apple costed about $100M, yet it had rather unique qualities such as indisputable, provable lack of contamination. That's the kind of cost difference we're talking about here.

Re: The Web3 Fraud

#38

Post by selestify » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 4:51 AM UTC

jjnoakes wrote: post #25

v64 wrote: post #13

Many criticisms of blockchain apps, comparing their use cases to conventional technologies (databases, conventional separation of services such as that described in the article, etc) all seem to miss a major point: Dapps running on the blockchain are immutable and highly resistant to being shutdown. Immutability is important because it's guaranteed that no matter how many times you interact with a contract address, y…

I get mostly the same features with self-hosted and local traditional apps for a fraction of the price and much lower general financial risk as well.

The person you're replying to has already addressed your points:

> Yes, blockchains are slower and more expensive. This is the current cost of enabling the two facets above. If we're not comparing blockchain dapps to other systems that offer the same assurances, then we're comparing apples and oranges.

Could you please respond more meaningfully to the conversation?

Re: The Web3 Fraud

#39

Post by v64 » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 4:51 AM UTC

jjnoakes wrote: post #25

v64 wrote: post #13

Many criticisms of blockchain apps, comparing their use cases to conventional technologies (databases, conventional separation of services such as that described in the article, etc) all seem to miss a major point: Dapps running on the blockchain are immutable and highly resistant to being shutdown. Immutability is important because it's guaranteed that no matter how many times you interact with a contract address, y…

I get mostly the same features with self-hosted and local traditional apps for a fraction of the price and much lower general financial risk as well.

"mostly" being the key word :) If you're self-hosting, then your server is a weak point. It goes down, your app goes down. The additional cost and risk that comes with using blockchains provides a platform for your app to run on that you don't have to manage and is highly resistant to being shut down.

Likewise, there always exists the possibility that your server can be compromised and the code can be altered. The immutability of the blockchain guarantees that your code cannot be changed, with or without your knowledge.

Re: The Web3 Fraud

#40

Post by toomuchtodo » Fri, Dec 17, 2021, 4:51 AM UTC

systemvoltage wrote: post #28

toomuchtodo wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hot take: The proponents of decentralized systems feel disenfranchised by those who own and govern centralized systems, therefore decentralized systems are their way around what they consider injustice. It is a grasp for control and power where they feel they have none. They don’t feel they have a seat at the table, so they argue for building their own table, which is, naturally, “superior” to the existing table (why…

I think this is a toxic way to look at it. Casting it as "they", you're implicitly condoning partisanship/tribalism and putting people into bins. Discussions around this would be guaranteed to be vile and full of hatred. Not just from "your" side, but "they" will also see you in the same way. As technologists, we ought to be better than this. Think about this like we do with on-prem vs cloud. It is decentralization v…

Crypto isn’t about technology. It’s about wealth and power (literally!) on top of a (slow) distributed database.

As technologists, we ought to recognize the difference and see the forests for the trees. As a technologist, I cannot unsee the patterns nor look away.

I’m sure you’d find similar musings in 2600 or Phrack decades ago.