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Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

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Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#571

58 minutes after posting, your post has 134 points and sits at the top of Ask HN. I think that answers your question a lot more clearly than the comments themselves. What you've said is clearly resonating with a lot of readers, even if they may not say so in the comments.

> What you've said is clearly resonating with a lot of readers, even if they may not say so in the comments. The way it resonates with me specifically, is that I am curious how does one get a job like this. Is this company hiring? Do they allow work from home? Don't get me wrong; I am a lazy person. If I had an opportunity to work like this, I probably would do it, too. But I don't know how. For example, it happens t…

Join the governent and look for aging megaprojects, involving C#, Java, Visualbasic, powershell etc..

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#572

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole point is the compensation is not based on how hard you work but the value you provide and what the market will support. Of course upper management works roughly the same hours as everyone else, but they also have far more responsibility.

Actually, compensation is based on what the company has to pay . There are some other rules, like they have to (overall) pay less than they make from the output. But in general, a company never pays their employees more than they think they have to. 10x programmers don't make 10x the pay. They might make slightly more, but not even 2x what a 1x programmer (of the same level, no comparing seniors to juniors) makes at…

best solution is to stay a 1x developer then devote most of your energy to sidegigs and stock investing

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#573
post #453

It took some growing up on my part to realize the fundamental value in "If you do something, do it well". I used to be very much in favor of "getting by" and a "good enough is good enough" mentally. After all, it's the rational point of view. Why work more, if you can work less? But the truth of the matter is that once you put your entire being into something, you immediately find value in it. Anything you do fully,…

Sure. Do what you do well BUT you probably won't be able to meet your standards for a _long_ time so "do what you do" >>> "do it well"

Iteration trumps "perfection"

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#574

Similar job here. Except I’ve been a consultant billing through to our clients mostly by the hour. I’ve run a key logger on myself for over a decade. While my start and stop times vary wildly I spend between 30 and 45 hours doing something on my computer during a nominal 5 day work week. The app I use for this (RescueTime) classifies the sites and applications I use according to my judgement on if they are productive…

I would also add (reading other comments) that coding in particular is very much a thing that feels like I’m slacking off for hours or days. Just fiddling around or fighting some random problems that is not the actual thing I’m fixing. Then at some point it just flows and you get the whole feature/fix/whatever done in a single sitting of intense focus. People who don’t code and watch the tickets hit the done column often think that my productivity is variable but I think this is very typical of most devs I know.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#575

Long time manager here. I call this "work-shy" and it is neither ubiquitous nor rare, I'd guess about 10%-20% of all employees, and it's certainly not unique to software or even to white-collar work. You should think of this as a problem. Even if it's not for your boss or your teammates (and it will be, eventually), it is for you. It is soul-crushing to fill up the hours. Two pieces of advice: 1) The "good" solution…

It is interesting the number of people who see this as a problem that needs to be fixed. Since this specific comment is near the top, I might as well address that here. Why should I work more? How will that improve my life? My self-worth is derived from what I do outside of work to the extent that I don't prioritize professional validation. The primary reason I work is for money. I make enough money that I can live a…

> I am on HN after all, which tells you I care more about software development as a skill than some of my coworkers

well, if you measure skills by amount of time people spend on HN, I think you miss something.

Yeah, you don't have to work more. But imaging what would be if you wanted to work more. Not because you have to or forced to. But because you find your work so interesting that you want to put more hours where just to do it. Thats what at least some of commentors are trying to tell you. I were in positions where I could simply don't do anything the whole week and nobody would care (I was TL of the great team). But I didn't want to. Even when I actually avoid doing tasks my manager wants from me, I always find some cool stuff to do, to improve code I already have or investigate something or just bring shiny new tehcnology thing.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#576
I think I've been on both ends of this, sometimes being highly productive and working long hours, and other times just doing enough to not get fired. Remote work and the pandemic have had an interesting effect in that it intensifies both passion and disinterest. IE, if I'm passionate about something, I'm much more likely to work on it more than I would in an office because I don't have the commute, have to worry about locking up the office, etc. etc.. But if I'm disinterested, it's easy to be really disinterested and watch a day slip away. When I was in an office, there was only so much pretending-to-work I could do before I got bored and actually had to force myself to do the work. Usually it was more of a grind, but I'd say my average performance was more consistent, whereas now it's either much higher or much lower, depending on what I'm doing.

I'd say if it's career long though, and not just related to a job or a project, I don't think it's abnormal per-se... I've seen a lot of devs like this... but I think it wouldn't hurt to explore things you might be more passionate about. Like others have said, you're probably not going to get fired if you're doing just-enough, but it might have bad effects on your mental health.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#578
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We have about an average of 4 hours of meetings everyday. That would be the entirety of my workday. You should complain about this, meetings are incredibly costly to a company and must have a limit.

We do complain, but nothing really gets done.

Probably they have meetings to discuss the problem.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#579
> Then I successfully bullshit my way through our next stand-up to hide my lack of production.

Just because no one says anything doesn't mean no one notices you're bullshitting.

You're riding a wave right now, the demand for tech workers is unprecedented. For every person who has your work ethic there is a dev on your team picking up the slack.

Now here's what I'll leave you with: being a less talented developer who tries: that's good. Being someone who thinks you can put one over on other developers? That's bad.

From what you've said it's likely there have been more than one productive developer silently judging you in your lifetime. The consequences of speaking up are what prevent confrontation. No one wants to seem awkward and it's really up to the lead, right?

Well maybe the lead is too lazy or doesn't see correcting your lack of contribution as a worthwhile use of their time.

So in-case you were wondering why this has worked for you: it's because most people are passive conflict avoiders.

If you want to feel good about your life's work in your final moments it might be time to make a change.

Re: Ask HN: Are most of us developers lying about how much work we do?

#580

I've been a software engineer and managed software engineers for 20 years and worked in all kinds of businesses. This is both normal and mostly acceptable, in my professional opinion. Doing just as much work as your employer requires and no more is way less of a problem than employees who actively steal, commit fraud, bring drama and distract other team members, or are introducing defects because they've faked their…

" This is both normal and mostly acceptable, in my professional opinion. " It's definitely not acceptable. It's a form of White Collar / 1st World Corruption. Taking money from people with expectation of value, while not providing that value is Fraud. Just because we don't always have great oversight, does not abnegate our responsibilities towards trying to do a good job. This notion of 'I Can Get Away With It' and '…

It's definitely not acceptable.

It's a form of White Collar / 1st World Corruption.

Taking money from people with expectation of value, while not providing that value is Fraud.

Woaaah there buddy!

Did you read the all of the OP's post? He's never been fired and gets middling to good performance reviews. Continuing to pay his salary implies that the company it's getting a fair deal. This is obviously not fraud in any legal sense.

Characterizing this dynamic as "White Collar corruption" is a totally warped, an in my view, offensive. If there is any corruption in this scenario, it's on the side of the employer. If the OP's situation is widespread within the company, failing to recognize and remedy it could very well be a breach of fiduciary duty owed to the shareholders. Not a lawyer, but I'm pretty positive that ignorance or incompetence is not a legally valid excuse.

In my view, the real issue here is that salaried employees are almost never compensated in proportion to actual value that they generate. A flat rate arrangement, assuming no significant bonuses, results in a zero-sum game with diametrically opposed incentives for the two parties. The employer maximizes value by trying to as much work as possible from the employee. And the employee maximizes his hourly rate by working as little as possible, with the ultimate goal of infinte dollars per hour at 0 hours worked.

The incentives become perfectly aligned if the pay is based on some objective measure of generated value. Moreover, I would would argue that it would be fairly straightforward to come up with a logical metric for every single position within a company that generates revenue. These can be proxies instead trying to estimate revenue growth or cost reduction to every single employee. Moreover, the dollars tied to a given position's reward metric would be subject to market rates the same way that salaries are today.

TL;DR - Don't hate the player, hate the game.

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