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What Does It Mean for AI to Understand?

quantamagazine.org

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Re: What Does It Mean for AI to Understand?

#71
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How do consciousness and intention emerge from materials that are not alive and that have neither consciousness nor intention? I think the question shoud first be not about "how", but rather - "does consciousness emerge from the materials". Most cultures in the past have maintained ideas about the duality between spirit and matter. Nowadays we are so adept at manipulating matter we always explicitly assume that eve…

*Edited because I can't type* I do not understand this argument. I'm going use the word magic for whatever you're calling this non-"materialistic" spiritual explanation. I'm not trying to be a jackass, that's truly the best word I can find for it. I don't think magic is a bad thing, I just don't think you should summon magic until you need to. Magic is not an explanation, it's a non-explanation. It's non-falsifiable…

> I do not understand this argument.

The unfortunate thing is that, I think, I understand your side. But something happened, I read some book or heard some talk that placed a seed of doubt in my mind. At first it was just a seed and I oscillated back and forth between being 100% materialist and between entertaining the proposition that there is something beyond matter in this world. But as time went on I began to shift towards the "non material" interpretation for consciousness more and more.

It's not an explanation, I agree. But there is nothing to explain. Me claiming that consciousness might not arise from matter is not an attempt to explain it. I just see no way how it can be investigated in material terms. If you see a person on the street there is no way you can tell if he or she is conscious. And I don't see a possibility of there ever being a way.

Sadly, I don't know what started this doubt in me, so I cannot share it with you. You brought physicists for some reason, and I know a few, like Schrodinger, who thought about consciousness and came to the same conclusion. Here is his quote: "Consciousness cannot be accounted for in physical terms. For consciousness is absolutely fundamental. It cannot be accounted for in terms of anything else." I haven't read about Max Plank, but heard he had similar views.

If I had to guess my starting point was a book called "the problems of philosophy" by Bertnard Russell [1]. He tries to answer the question "are there any statements to which all reasonable men would agree". And one of the conclusions the book comes to is that you cannot claim anything as objective without assumptions, and that the most objective thing is your subjective experience.

For example if you saw a cat, turned your head, and then looked back at the cat - was the cat there when you were not looking or was it gone? In the book Russell convincingly demonstrates that if someone maintains the cat was gone when you were not looking - you cannot prove logically to that person that he is wrong. In other words - you would not be able to start with his worldview and lead him to contradictions. Hence his "theory" about cat disappearing cannot be disproven without assumptions about how material objects behave.

Not sure if this is helpful, but I wanted to reply.

[1]: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/5827/5827-h/5827-h.htm

Re: What Does It Mean for AI to Understand?

#72
post #66
post #30

As an AI professor, I've always held that machines are NOT intelligent (I am prepared to change my position on the day my computer asks me anything surprising that I didn't program it to). But this does not mean we cannot produce operational models of understanding, for example we have models of propositional/logical semantics and discourse such as Lambda Discourse Representation Theory and others, which can compute…

I think your position couples intelligence with consciousness a bit too tightly. I can imagine a goldfish is conscious but not intelligent and I can imagine a very powerful supercomputer to be intelligent but not conscious. The prerequisite to change your position can be satisfied by having a computer randomly generate a question, which I don't think would be an example of consciousness or intelligence. Furthermore e…

'Consciousness' is just a synonym for self-aware. Goldfish are not self-aware.

Re: What Does It Mean for AI to Understand?

#73

Good article. I think winograd/winogrande are super clever (and also kind of a “fun” idea). My personal take is that blanket understanding is too hard of a task to define, so we ought to cheat and talk about types of understanding. In my mind, understanding a thing means not only that you can answer, but also that you can justify your answer. So different kinds of understanding point to different kinds of justificati…

The other good thing with requiring proofs is that you can show specify exactly where the proof fails and the one giving the proof can use this feedback to correct their beliefs.

I would actually be pretty okay with a model that can do that. Take feedback and correct themselves without resorting to retraining. It would still be pretty far away from a general AI but much much better than a black box.

Re: What Does It Mean for AI to Understand?

#74
post #71
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

*Edited because I can't type* I do not understand this argument. I'm going use the word magic for whatever you're calling this non-"materialistic" spiritual explanation. I'm not trying to be a jackass, that's truly the best word I can find for it. I don't think magic is a bad thing, I just don't think you should summon magic until you need to. Magic is not an explanation, it's a non-explanation. It's non-falsifiable…

> I do not understand this argument. The unfortunate thing is that, I think, I understand your side. But something happened, I read some book or heard some talk that placed a seed of doubt in my mind. At first it was just a seed and I oscillated back and forth between being 100% materialist and between entertaining the proposition that there is something beyond matter in this world. But as time went on I began to shi…

[deleted]

Re: What Does It Mean for AI to Understand?

#75

Prediction. Setting aside the metaphysical questions of subjective "meaning" and "understanding" what else is there? What a system can predict is the measure of its "understanding", surely?

Does a mechanical bomb sight 'understand' ballistics and aerodynamics?

By this definition, yes, of course. That's a great example.

Re: What Does It Mean for AI to Understand?

#76
post #30

As an AI professor, I've always held that machines are NOT intelligent (I am prepared to change my position on the day my computer asks me anything surprising that I didn't program it to). But this does not mean we cannot produce operational models of understanding, for example we have models of propositional/logical semantics and discourse such as Lambda Discourse Representation Theory and others, which can compute…

> As an AI professor, I've always held that machines are NOT intelligent (I am prepared to change my position on the day my computer asks me anything surprising that I didn't program it to). While granting you your seemingly arbitrary metric for 'intelligence', one is forced to wonder to what extent AI systems of today are even given a means by which to ask such questions if they did, in fact, have them. Take AlphaGo…

Is it the case that playing the games are effectively a way of asking and answering questions, specifically ‘do I win if I do this’?

Re: What Does It Mean for AI to Understand?

#77
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your position couples intelligence with consciousness a bit too tightly. I can imagine a goldfish is conscious but not intelligent and I can imagine a very powerful supercomputer to be intelligent but not conscious. The prerequisite to change your position can be satisfied by having a computer randomly generate a question, which I don't think would be an example of consciousness or intelligence. Furthermore e…

'Consciousness' is just a synonym for self-aware. Goldfish are not self-aware.

A being is conscious if and only if it feels like something to be that being. What you're referring to is self-consciousness. Goldfish are most surely conscious but not self-conscious.

Re: What Does It Mean for AI to Understand?

#78
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I feel this question is important to understand before we worry about what it means for the AI to understand. My thought is that we've got three types of "understanding": 1) social understanding 2) intuitive understanding 3) structural understanding Social understanding is something the society we live in knows, but the individual only knows in so far as the individual is doing something to fit in or via peer p…

I would use "experiential understanding" instead of "intuitive understanding", but I think we mean the same thing. I am not sure I agree with your hierarchy, however. I would rather have an experiential understanding of marital arts if I was faced with a would-be attacker than I would have a "structural understanding" as you put it. In other words, for many domains of interaction with the world, an experiential knowl…

It's not a hierarchy, it's just a list. Structural isn't meaningfully better than anything else. It just "works" for different reasons.

Intuitive is often faster to react and faster to get off the ground and producing results. So in a fight intuition is probably going to be better. That being said, supposedly the boxing fight that the movie 'cinderella man' was based off of involved Braddock analyzing Baer's fighting style and figuring out some foot work that kept him from getting pummeled. There's no reason that structural, intuitive, and social understanding can't all work together to get a result.

Re: What Does It Mean for AI to Understand?

#79
post #71
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

*Edited because I can't type* I do not understand this argument. I'm going use the word magic for whatever you're calling this non-"materialistic" spiritual explanation. I'm not trying to be a jackass, that's truly the best word I can find for it. I don't think magic is a bad thing, I just don't think you should summon magic until you need to. Magic is not an explanation, it's a non-explanation. It's non-falsifiable…

> I do not understand this argument. The unfortunate thing is that, I think, I understand your side. But something happened, I read some book or heard some talk that placed a seed of doubt in my mind. At first it was just a seed and I oscillated back and forth between being 100% materialist and between entertaining the proposition that there is something beyond matter in this world. But as time went on I began to shi…

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I'm leaving this mostly to acknowledge it and mark so I can come back later with a more thorough response.

I don't think we strictly disagree.

For one, I agree that, fundamentally, as the observers, everything is "filtered" through us whether we like it or not. So there's no getting around some notion of 'subjectivity' or 'observer' bias, at least not that I know about. But that is not at all exclusive to an improved (predictive, quantitative, model-based) understanding of the brain and consciousness. Look how much progress we've made!

BTW I'm on my phone and forget why we're talking specifically of consciousness and not AI? Is that my fault? My bad.

Oh, I brought physicists so my perspective was clear and you could understand my bias and my ignorance of actual neuroscience and CS and biology.

Re: What Does It Mean for AI to Understand?

#80
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would use "experiential understanding" instead of "intuitive understanding", but I think we mean the same thing. I am not sure I agree with your hierarchy, however. I would rather have an experiential understanding of marital arts if I was faced with a would-be attacker than I would have a "structural understanding" as you put it. In other words, for many domains of interaction with the world, an experiential knowl…

It's not a hierarchy, it's just a list. Structural isn't meaningfully better than anything else. It just "works" for different reasons. Intuitive is often faster to react and faster to get off the ground and producing results. So in a fight intuition is probably going to be better. That being said, supposedly the boxing fight that the movie 'cinderella man' was based off of involved Braddock analyzing Baer's fighting…

I misunderstood what you said as a hierarchy because of how you worded your last paragraph, but I would agree with you that synthesizing the different types of knowledge is the best way to interact with the world.
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