Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine • Hacker News Board

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#281

Post by tut-urut-utut » Thu, Dec 16, 2021, 3:40 PM UTC

rmind wrote: post #230

tut-urut-utut wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IIRC, it was NATO that signed an agreement that they won't expand to the east when Russia / USSR agreed to withdraw its army from the East Europe. It was the Russia / USSR that agreed to let Ukraine alone as long as they guarantee human rights and equal status of ethnic Russian / Russian-speaking minority in Ukraine (but majority in East Ukraine and Crimea). It was the Russia and USA that agreed to restrict usage of…

NATO never promised to not expand, see Myth 3 here: https://www.chathamhouse.org/2021/05/myths-and-misconception...

And the source of the analysis of the "myth" is Chatham House, an "independent" organization led by two ex British prime ministers and one ex MI5 member.

Just look at the list of the Chatham House Prize winners [1] and try to find one person there that is not anti russian.

I guess one could find State Department press releases less biased than this organization.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chatham_House#Chatham_House_Pr...

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#282

Post by jacquesm » Thu, Dec 16, 2021, 3:40 PM UTC

wayoutthere wrote: post #247

varjag wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People often have no appreciation of scale. Russia has more armor than NATO has Javelins and loitering munitions.

Most of which are pushing 50 years old. Russia has a lot of military assets, and has developed some advanced capabilities, but has not been able to field them in any meaningful quantity since the fall of the Soviet Union. The same story is true with their air superiority / denial capabilities. They have advanced weapons, but not enough of them to go toe-to-toe with NATO and the bulk of their military is obsolete Sovi…

Yes, but they run just fine. Russia can field massive amounts of heavy materials, far more than any other Western European country, and they have plenty of mobile launchers and other annoying hardware that can throw a spanner in the works for a fairly large surface area, and the number of airplanes they can field is quite impressive. It may not be the latest and the greatest, but it's not as if F35s are thick on the ground (or in the skies) in Europe either (less than 100 in total, most for training purposes).

I really would not see this put to the test, not only because of the potential outcome but because such an exchange has the potential to spiral out of control really fast.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#283

Post by aa-jv » Thu, Dec 16, 2021, 3:40 PM UTC

drran wrote: post #276

aa-jv wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germans would like to have their country back and kick NATO out. Serbians, Hungarians, Slovakians, Czechians, Slovenians .. even my colleagues in Kosovo are sick of Americas' shit. The reason is, they don't live behind an iron curtain of censorship of America's crimes against humanity, as most Americans/Western Europeans do.

I have relatives in Slovakia. Never heard anything about NATO from them. Can you point out where are you finding that?

I have multiple work colleagues in Slovakia, a stones throw away from me, who are very definitely against NATO bases expanding into eastern/central Europe.

I suggest you ask your relatives how they feel about NATO encroaching further and further towards Russias' borders, and what do they think about the recent NATO exercise that flew armed nuclear missiles within 20km's of Russias borders. If the tables were turned, Americans would be having kittens - but somehow, Russians are supposed to take these threats lightly?

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#284

Post by w_t_payne » Thu, Dec 16, 2021, 3:40 PM UTC

mk3 wrote: post #82

w_t_payne wrote: post #7

Putin justifies his clumsy adventurism by attempting to paint his enemies as fascists. The rise of the extreme right in the west provides significant political cover for Putin, and should probably be assumed to be a tool of his hybrid warfare strategy.

Anybody speaking against is fascist. Navalny’s organisation is terroristic organisation… Also putting USSR uniforms on hockey players during the games. The only thing which I find funny that a lot of people are getting fed up by this BS both in Russia and outside. And I know people whose parents are living in Russia not getting visas to enter Russia. Old folks and fools maybe fooled that trying to get the might of so…

It's a mistake to conflate Putin's interests with those of Russia. His continued attempts to bolster hostile far-right strawmen into something more substantial puts his actions in direct conflict with those he claims to represent. His divide-and-rule politics puts him into a state of active, ongoing conflict with all of us.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#285

Post by skinkestek » Thu, Dec 16, 2021, 3:42 PM UTC

underscore_ku wrote: post #143

lnsru wrote: post #27

There is only way for country’s protection and it’s Israel’s way where whole country is also an army. Especially for countries near unfriendly countries like Russia in this submission. Because all the treaties and documents signed by politicians are absolutely worthless. Ukraine got rid of all the Soviet nuclear weapons and got lots of promises: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Secur... Now they…

there are already NATO battalions in Latvia and Lithuania. Albania, the Czech Republic, Iceland, Italy, Montenegro, Poland, Slovakia, Slovenia and Spain contribute to the Canadian-led battlegroup in Latvia; Belgium, the Czech Republic, Iceland, Luxembourg, the Netherlands and Norway provide contributions to the German-led battlegroup in Lithuania; France and Iceland contribute to the UK-led battlegroup in Estonia; an…

It is rather well known that the deployment of Nato soldiers to other Nato countries in peacetime serves more purposes than just training together and showing support.

Russia knows well that if they do something on the borders of the eastern Nato countries they will anger not only that nation but they also risk killing young people from a number of other Nato countries at the same time, meaning that broad support for counter action will hopefully build very quickly compared to if only "some people in a former east block country got killed in an unfortunate accident" or "there was a border dispute" like in Ukraine.

Some notes:

- I support this. I am a trained soldier and if my country asks me I will come although I am old enough to realize it will hurt. I have read my history and history is not kind to pacifists - but see also my next point!

- I absolutely do not like how Nato meddled in Afghanistan for about two decades. Defense allianse, not "attack alliance" or "do something vaguely good"-alliance is what I support.

- I'm not sure if it will help in the short term. Russia is unpredictable and they are making a point of it.

- On the other hand however maybe what we see is that it already works: Nato countries sees far less Russian aggression than Ukraine.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#286

Post by ArtemZ » Thu, Dec 16, 2021, 3:42 PM UTC

javajosh wrote: post #164

hdjjhhvvhga wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But is Russia a warmongering nation? I'd say most Russians hate war. Maybe more than anyone else because they were the nation that suffered most casualties in World War II. An emergence of a peaceful leader and friendly reactions with the West would mark the beginning of a completely new era in the history of our civilization. And would help both Russia and the West in the face of increasing Chinese power.

Well now, this is the question isn't it: what's going on with Russia? They've had a (smarter, more violent) version of Trump in power for 20 years, using violence to repress dissent, using fraud to fake poll numbers, cheated so bad at the Olympics they got a forever ban, and state-run media to broadcast propoganda. For the Russians, communism failed, then capitalism failed, and the national economy is the size of Ita…

There are plenty of Montessori schools and thousands of compfy coffee shops even outside of Moscow, let alone in it.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#287

Post by reducesuffering » Thu, Dec 16, 2021, 3:42 PM UTC

aa-jv wrote: post #262

reducesuffering wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You moved to Austria from Australia less than 3 months ago (if you're not lying about that also). Austria is 1/1,000 Ukrainian and 1/3,000 Georgian, and the younger crowd is even further US aligned. Please tell me more about how you've made 10,000 friends in 2 months to statistically avg. knowing a lot of them. You don't know "a lot of Ukraine and Georgian expats." I have family from both and have been all over Georg…

Your analysis is faulty, I've lived in Austria for 15 years and have extensive experience working professionally in the Balkan states - Kosovo, Serbia, Hungary, Croatia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Czech Republic. I've also lived in the USA for many decades prior to moving to Europe, and I don't have a single nationalist bone in my body. I can count the # of pro-NATO/pro-USA bootlickers in my professional circles on one hand…

You 3 months ago: "This is sufficient motivation to abandon my Australian citizenship entirely and move to a country [Germany. Austria]"

And you said the Ukrainian and Georgian expats were here in Austria. I'll leave it to others to decide if you're telling the truth.

> You seem to be aligned with the "might makes right" theory of geopolitics.

Actually I was explicitly saying that Russia annexing Ukraine (might) isn't right. ???

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#288

Post by sudosysgen » Thu, Dec 16, 2021, 3:43 PM UTC

torstenvl wrote: post #218

sudosysgen wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The debacle in Afghanistan showed that the US military is incompetent when it comes to actually achieving their goals. Let's say the US does intervene in Ukraine. The US still won't be able to take Crimea for obvious reasons. Ukraine itself will be even more of a shithole. In the end, when the US leaves Ukraine, Will things be better or worse? Who knows, and that's why an intervention there is not on the table. If it…

> The debacle in Afghanistan showed that the US military is incompetent when it comes to actually achieving their goals How so? That's a pretty novel interpretation. Why do you view Afghanistan as a military failure rather than a political one?

It's really not a novel interpretation.

The goal of a military operation is to achieve political goals. There is no clear delineation between the two. If the political goals weren't reached then the military failed.

A military is only as good as its leadership, is it not? Well, the ultimate leadership is the president.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#289

Post by jacquesm » Thu, Dec 16, 2021, 3:44 PM UTC

hdjjhhvvhga wrote: post #222

jacquesm wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that the rest of Europe doesn't really 'know' Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia, they are just names to them. Possibly some people would be able to point them out on a map but the vast bulk of the people has absolutely no link with those countries on account of them being geographically isolated. Their only direct connection is a less than 50 km wide strip of border between Poland and Lithuania with exactl…

I completely agree about hearts and minds, but this is not how NATO works. When the USA asked their partners to help them in the invasion of Afghanistan, Iraq etc., nobody asked about hearts and minds. Many f not most people in the EU were against the war. There were demonstrations in most capitals[0]. But everybody sent their troops even if they didn't care about the war, because this is how NATO works in practice.…

I'm quite concerned that this is a one way street. The United States is the first to lean on other countries to support them in their adventures but I somewhat doubt if the Baltics were in need that the US (for instance: under Biden or god forbid another run of Trump) would step in. They just pulled out of Afghanistan, a mess of their own making, without any consideration for the consequences.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#290

Post by w_t_payne » Thu, Dec 16, 2021, 3:44 PM UTC

rectang wrote: post #280

scottLobster wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question is less about NATO deployments and more the will of NATO leadership to go to war with Russia over its more minor members. I hate to say it but the Afghanistan withdrawal really showed what happens when Americans stop giving a shit, and they probably don't give that much of a shit about Latvia. Who's going to step into that gap for NATO? Poland recently ran a military exercise simulating a war with Russia…

> I hate to say it but the Afghanistan withdrawal really showed what happens when Americans stop giving a shit, and they probably don't give that much of a shit about Latvia. The US is facing severe internal crises. It's weakening the country's ability to conduct a consistent foreign policy. (I'm deliberately not saying what the crises are, because there is pitched disagreement about that. The point is that no matter…

And when the cause of that internal crisis is the rise of far-right populism (either actively funded or at least tacitly supported by Putin), then it really doesn't take much effort to put two and two together. There are no mysteries here, only evil working in plain sight.