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Omicron evades Moderna vaccine too, study suggests, but boosters help

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Re: Omicron evades Moderna vaccine too, study suggests, but boosters help

#21

Post by jrootabega »

refurb wrote: post #13

Anyone feel like covid has exposed the western obsession with optimization. There were even people who preferred Pfizer’s vaccine over Moderna’s because the risk reduction was some marginal number like 96.5% versus 94.7%? Clearly statistically insignificant? Just because the Moderna vaccine is 50x less effective (measure by neutralizing ability of generated antibodies) doesn’t mean it doesn’t offer substantial protec…

People want to feel like they have some control over the health and success of themselves and their society at a time when they have almost none. Kinda like kicking the tires to help decide if you should buy a car.

Re: Omicron evades Moderna vaccine too, study suggests, but boosters help

#22

Post by SideburnsOfDoom »

raxxorrax wrote: post #20
rsynnott wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> according to the South African medical authorities who first identified and reported it Well, according to the doctor who did. Other South African medical authorities have been a lot more cautious. > Most everyone is vaxxed that is high-risk. Let the rest deal with their consequences. The trouble is, the consequences for the rest involve filling up hospitals, ICUs (and ultimately morgues, though this is less disrup…

Unvaccinated people under the age of 60 certainly do not put any significant pressure on ICUs. Saying otherwise is a blatant lie and demonizes people. Doing so and searching blame in others is a symptom of severe inferiority complex which is dangerous to other people, so take care what you say.

> Unvaccinated people under the age of 60 certainly do not put any significant pressure on ICUs

However:

"Ohio Gov. Mike DeWine a day earlier warned of a “startling” rise in Covid hospitalizations among young people."

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/22/unvaccinated-covid-patients-...

"I’m treating more and more young, unvaccinated people in ICU"

https://metro.co.uk/2021/11/10/most-covid-patients-i-treat-i...

"We're seeing younger people, unvaccinated, who take up around 75 percent of the intensive care beds and that's not just here, that's nationally."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-gloucestershire-594054...

"90% were not fully vaccinated, with most tending to be on average six years younger than patients admitted to ICU who are fully vaccinated"

https://www.bartshealth.nhs.uk/news/almost-90-of-patients-ad...

"Young people in ICU with Covid almost exclusively unvaccinated and some are dying"

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/young-people-in-i...

Why do you call this "a blatant lie and demonizes people" ? - that's strong language, and would need some justification.

"blatant" means "very obvious", so what is very obvious about it?

What I'm very obviously seeing, is not what you claim to be very obviously seeing.

Re: Omicron evades Moderna vaccine too, study suggests, but boosters help

#23

Post by zpeti »

Amezarak wrote: post #12
bigodbiel wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if lower neutralization, higher antibody loads post booster (much larger than post second dose). I wonder how this works with Moderna’s lower dosage shots.

I have been skeptical that antibodies are a good proxy for vaccine effectiveness. Your immune system "remembers" how to create antibodies, and there's no clear reason why it would continue to produce them after an infection has been eradicated. So I would expect antibody levels to always drop off naturally over time until your next exposure (or vaccine) with little or no impact on actual effectiveness, regardless of…

I think you are right, and I think health officials and politicians basically want society’s immune system to be on high alert for a long time.

I have no idea scientifically how good an idea that is. Second shots have a higher risk of myocardiatis, what about third, fourth, fifth? At what point can you let go and rely on T cell immunity?

Re: Omicron evades Moderna vaccine too, study suggests, but boosters help

#24

Post by mensetmanusman »

Omicron is an evolution in the spike, which is what the mRNA vaccines focused on.

When the spike changes sufficiently, there is no mechanism by which the vaccine works, except in so much as that person may have already had sars-cov-2 with no symptoms and built additional immunity to other topologies of the system.

Since everyone will eventually host the virus at some time scale, the best one could hope for is initially being vaccinated, then catching a similar virus with no symptoms to build immunity and so on. Vaccines are simply preparation for the inevitable exposure to spreaders with R0>>1.

Re: Omicron evades Moderna vaccine too, study suggests, but boosters help

#25

Post by peteradio »

SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #22
raxxorrax wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unvaccinated people under the age of 60 certainly do not put any significant pressure on ICUs. Saying otherwise is a blatant lie and demonizes people. Doing so and searching blame in others is a symptom of severe inferiority complex which is dangerous to other people, so take care what you say.

> Unvaccinated people under the age of 60 certainly do not put any significant pressure on ICUs However: "Ohio Gov. Mike DeWine a day earlier warned of a “startling” rise in Covid hospitalizations among young people." https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/22/unvaccinated-covid-patients-... "I’m treating more and more young, unvaccinated people in ICU" https://metro.co.uk/2021/11/10/most-covid-patients-i-treat-i... "We're seei…

Those are not statistics related to ICU occupancy, except for this line:

"We're seeing younger people, unvaccinated, who take up around 75 percent of the intensive care beds and that's not just here, that's nationally."

How do you read that? 75% of ICU bed are being taken up by young unvaccinated covid patients? I'd bet all my money that is not true.

These sentences are being put together to drive the cattle not inform.

Re: Omicron evades Moderna vaccine too, study suggests, but boosters help

#26

Post by acdha »

Amezarak wrote: post #12
bigodbiel wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if lower neutralization, higher antibody loads post booster (much larger than post second dose). I wonder how this works with Moderna’s lower dosage shots.

I have been skeptical that antibodies are a good proxy for vaccine effectiveness. Your immune system "remembers" how to create antibodies, and there's no clear reason why it would continue to produce them after an infection has been eradicated. So I would expect antibody levels to always drop off naturally over time until your next exposure (or vaccine) with little or no impact on actual effectiveness, regardless of…

This is the reason for the split between getting sick and having a severe case. In pandemic conditions, having antibodies present is desirable means you’re less likely to spread it to someone else because the virus doesn’t have time to replicate much before your immune system fights it off.

Re: Omicron evades Moderna vaccine too, study suggests, but boosters help

#27

Post by raxxorrax »

SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #22
raxxorrax wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unvaccinated people under the age of 60 certainly do not put any significant pressure on ICUs. Saying otherwise is a blatant lie and demonizes people. Doing so and searching blame in others is a symptom of severe inferiority complex which is dangerous to other people, so take care what you say.

> Unvaccinated people under the age of 60 certainly do not put any significant pressure on ICUs However: "Ohio Gov. Mike DeWine a day earlier warned of a “startling” rise in Covid hospitalizations among young people." https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/22/unvaccinated-covid-patients-... "I’m treating more and more young, unvaccinated people in ICU" https://metro.co.uk/2021/11/10/most-covid-patients-i-treat-i... "We're seei…

None of these articles have any sources and are known for fear mongering by now. It is not reflected by numbers.

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fmed.2020.56068...

or specifically:

https://www.frontiersin.org/files/Articles/560685/fmed-07-56...

And even they have a questionable method by aggregating people of age 40-69. If you would split it further 40-59, the middle aged group would look just as the young one.

It certainly does not affect you negatively if someone under 50 is unvaccinated because ICU usage would still be very low and the indictment warrants a direct response because the poster was accusing innocents.

Re: Omicron evades Moderna vaccine too, study suggests, but boosters help

#28

Post by ethanbond »

unmole wrote: post #11
JPKab wrote: post #3

Less virulent, less dangerous than delta by far, according to the South African medical authorities who first identified and reported it. It's been a long established medical fact that viruses evolve to become less severe over time, due to selective pressures of being able to spread easier if you don't incapacitate your host. Micheal Crichton's Andromeda Strain featured this as a key plot point, written in the 70s. F…

> It's been a long established medical fact that viruses evolve to become less severe over time HIV, Smallpox and Rabies would like a word.

Sorry by “long established medical fact” I think what he meant was “pop science heuristic that is maybe true at t = infinity.”

Re: Omicron evades Moderna vaccine too, study suggests, but boosters help

#29

Post by supermatt »

Why would the antibodies be more effective after 3 shots than 2? Shouldn't they be the same/similar antibodies?

Is it more a case of the 3rd dose being more recent than the 2nd dose was for participants so there are more present? If so, why are we talking about number of vaccines instead of recency of vaccination?

Re: Omicron evades Moderna vaccine too, study suggests, but boosters help

#30

Post by SideburnsOfDoom »

raxxorrax wrote: post #27
SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unvaccinated people under the age of 60 certainly do not put any significant pressure on ICUs However: "Ohio Gov. Mike DeWine a day earlier warned of a “startling” rise in Covid hospitalizations among young people." https://www.cnbc.com/2021/09/22/unvaccinated-covid-patients-... "I’m treating more and more young, unvaccinated people in ICU" https://metro.co.uk/2021/11/10/most-covid-patients-i-treat-i... "We're seei…

None of these articles have any sources and are known for fear mongering by now. It is not reflected by numbers. https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fmed.2020.56068... or specifically: https://www.frontiersin.org/files/Articles/560685/fmed-07-56... And even they have a questionable method by aggregating people of age 40-69. If you would split it further 40-59, the middle aged group would look just as the you…

If you're going to dismiss a wide range of mainstream media "unsourced, known for fear mongering" then I'm going to stop listening, it's not a worthwhile conversation.

Again, what is so "very obvious" about something that a wide range of sources contradict?

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