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Work/life balance should be difficult

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Re: Work/life balance should be difficult

#91
post #3

The headline makes article feels incomplete. We are told why the life side of the equation is important without any real mention of the value of work. It feels like the conclusion I am supposed to come to is that the balance is easy as work should always defer to life. Why shouldn't I put in the minimum amount of effort into work that gets me to a comfortable lifestyle outside of work?

Why shouldn't I put in the minimum amount of effort into work that gets me to a comfortable lifestyle outside of work?

Indeed. If we assume "work" is doing something you wouldn't otherwise do, then absolutely, you should be asking that question. And for most people, that's likely true of almost any employment.

Re: Work/life balance should be difficult

#92

> My father rushed over from his job at Philco (you can still see the building on 101 in Palo Alto). He took a couple of days to make the necessary arrangements, passed me off to my grandmother’s care, then went back to work. He had a deadline. This story is a good reminder to me to continue to live within my means. In this situation, fuck deadlines! I'm taking my son to a ball game and helping him grieve the loss of…

I think there is a bit of a lack of empathy in your response. First, not everyone has learned how to express affection, especially some of the previous generations. The author even wrote that the father wanted to be involved in his child's life, but did not have practice or models for being the kind of father the author wanted. It does not indicate cowardice. It could be very difficult to switch one's frame of view to something that seems alien. It might have been just as difficult for the author's father to become an affectionate and involved parent, which you see as something he should be able to achieve, as it would be for a typical modern man to accept that plants have the same rights as people, which some future version of humanity might consider to be an obvious given.

Second, people grieve in different ways. Some might engage in self-destructive behavior. Others might fall into a deep depression and have trouble getting out of bed. The father might have found comfort with the routine of work where he could pretend everything was fine. He was at least aware enough to make sure his children were care for, by passing them to the grandmother. He might find seeing his wife or child too much to bear, as they remind him too much of his daughter. There is a reason why couples often separate if a child dies. He might not have the skills to deal with his grief, might not have had help, might not know where to get help, might not have even know he needed help.

Third, there are several different ways of parenting. One of which is what you mentioned, making sure the family has modest needs so that they can live within those means, reducing the burden on the parents to have to constantly strive for ever increasing wages. There are also parents who want to provide as much as possible for their children, the healthiest foods, the best medical care, exposure to many ideas and activities and cultures, which necessitates a tradeoff between effort put into work and direct time with family. It might be easy to agree that the extremes of the spectrum are poor choices, but harder to say where along the middle of the spectrum is the optimum. Which is the main point of the article, whether you agree or not.

Re: Work/life balance should be difficult

#93
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But say that we didn't have business or currency, and you had to go and get food for your family. Wouldn't you have to make sacrifices even then? There might be an emotional situation going on at home, but if the food supply was dwindling that is also an immediate problem. If anything, businesses have allowed us to spend way more time with family than we would if we actually had to hunt / farm / gather for food. Our…

> If anything, businesses have allowed us to spend way more time with family than we would if we actually had to hunt / farm / gather for food. That is untrue. There is ample evidence that hunter-gatherer societies have more leisure time than industrialized societies. Just to name two sources I've recently read: Harari covers it in Sapiens , and before that Mumford covered it in Technics and Human Development .

Realistically, if I wanted a similar family quality of life as hunter-gatherer societies, I could reach it in far less work time in modern society. Cutting out the expenses of larger/modern housing, advanced healthcare, higher education, and a lot of expensive leisure activities, living a simple family life would be very cheap and affordable on less than a 40 hour work week. I could even have a better lifestyle in many regards for the same amount of work time.

Re: Work/life balance should be difficult

#94

This is a stupid take. Work life balance could be easy if we didn't live in a system that forced you to sell your life to wealthy sociopaths in exchange for the right to exist.

Let's take away the modern economy - what would you have to do for survival?

Jon Jandai did a TED talk about this, he was from rual Thailand, he tried to get qualifications and a big city job and then couldn't. He describes his life after returning to his village as spending a few weeks planting and harvesting rice, fishing, spending about a month of making clay bricks and letting them dry in the sun to build a house with no downpayment or mortgage, and having most months of the year free, doing a lot of reading, and teaching people about saving seeds, farming, house building, community building, in exchange for hand-me-down clothes and so on.

He does "work", put effort in for results, but much much less than anything you would consider fulltime western job for survival. Whether it's possible for everyone to do that at scale, possible outside Thailand's growing conditions, whether everyone would want to live that way, it is at least a counterexample to the kind of dismissal "without a corporate job you would work hard 24/7 and still starve in a week, everything except this is worse by every measure" that seems to be behind comments like yours. He feels a lot happier living like this and building a local community than struggling and failing in the city as an isolated independent. http://www.jon-jandai.com/about/index.html

Re: Work/life balance should be difficult

#95

Your work should revolve around your life, not your life around your work. There's always going to be another exciting project after this one. There's not going to be another exciting life after this one.

This might be true in this case since the father was a Silicon Valley engineer. Stepping back, however, and I hate to be that guy, but your statement is "dripping with privilege", as the kids say nowadays. I can tell you that my parents would have not been able to say that, as they worked in manual labor jobs which damaged their bodies in order to provide me with the opportunity to study instead of work.

As a second point, reincarnation is a common religious concept, and there could very well be another exciting life after this one (although you probably shouldn't peg any plans on that).

Re: Work/life balance should be difficult

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's take away the modern economy - what would you have to do for survival?

Jon Jandai did a TED talk about this, he was from rual Thailand, he tried to get qualifications and a big city job and then couldn't. He describes his life after returning to his village as spending a few weeks planting and harvesting rice, fishing, spending about a month of making clay bricks and letting them dry in the sun to build a house with no downpayment or mortgage, and having most months of the year free, do…

Works for a prime-age healthy male of course. The data point is limited.

It takes a host more work that this theatre of seed-saving and mud-brick-making to live a secure life. That TED pundit could always simply take a plane back to civilization of the crop failed, if he got sick, if he got bored.

If he'd hit his toe with a hoe while doing that bucolic farming, where would he go? Infection, blood poisoning, fever, amputation or death could result. Not so romantic.

Re: Work/life balance should be difficult

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "We need work" is a social fact, nothing more, and it's only true as much as it's believed to be true. To me it stands out like pickle in pancake, maybe it can for you too. Something I believe, but can't really prove is that this is completely wrong and there's very little about the need for "work" that's socially determined. We are biological creatures that evolved under very specific circumstances. And "work" in…

That's cute, but it doesn't make sense. Most (I avoid saying all, because I'm not that smart) animals, when not surviving (finding food, consuming food, finding sex, having sex) are super idle. It's energetically expensive to work, and, so far as I can tell, nothing has evolved to be energetically stressed . If we're throwing around words like "evolution" we need to understand that we're talking about genetic surviva…

> Most (I avoid saying all, because I'm not that smart) animals, when not surviving (finding food, consuming food, finding sex, having sex) are super idle. It's energetically expensive to work, and, so far as I can tell, nothing has evolved to be energetically stressed.

"[F]inding food, consuming food, finding sex, having sex" is the work I'm talking about. So, yes, animals are either working or they're "super idle." There's no third mode where they're, like, finding their true selves. They're either working or they're asleep.

Re: Work/life balance should be difficult

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "We need work" is a social fact, nothing more, and it's only true as much as it's believed to be true. To me it stands out like pickle in pancake, maybe it can for you too. Something I believe, but can't really prove is that this is completely wrong and there's very little about the need for "work" that's socially determined. We are biological creatures that evolved under very specific circumstances. And "work" in…

Who’s to say that the work we do is a good simulation? Most jobs are not fulfilling, and our country is in the midst of a mental health crisis

Probably this is true. Something about specialization, maybe.

Re: Work/life balance should be difficult

#99
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our society needs people to haul garbage away. I would bet many of them don’t do it because it’s rewarding. It just gives them money to pay for things they care about. Should all those people leave hauling our garbage?

There are actually people who have retired from their IT jobs to drive garbage trucks. If the garbage hauling job doesn't itch a scratch that you have, then find something else or raise the pay until someone is happy to haul your trash.

Sounds like there are hierarchies in the garbagemen business. I recall reading an article a few years back about garbagemen, the ones who ride on the back of the trucks, they do back-breaking work, and it's definitely a young man's gig.

Re: Work/life balance should be difficult

#100
post #95

Your work should revolve around your life, not your life around your work. There's always going to be another exciting project after this one. There's not going to be another exciting life after this one.

This might be true in this case since the father was a Silicon Valley engineer. Stepping back, however, and I hate to be that guy, but your statement is "dripping with privilege", as the kids say nowadays. I can tell you that my parents would have not been able to say that, as they worked in manual labor jobs which damaged their bodies in order to provide me with the opportunity to study instead of work. As a second…

You're right, that was coming from the statement that the father was a SV engineer.

My parents didn't have any exciting projects either, in fact, children's lives depend on my mother who is a pediatric cardiologist in 3rd world country. Nevertheless, she came back from work and read the book with me before bed. I couldn't ask for more.

But when people pull long shifts to get the next version of the browser that makes marginal improvements instead of spending time with friends/family/doing a hobby (essentially living, not working) and take it as a medal of honor, they are missing a lot in life. People working late hours to put the food on the table and people deliberately working late and then using it as an excuse are different. If they're the latter, please don't tell that they're having hard time balancing work/life.

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