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Uncomfortable Truths in Software Engineering

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Re: Uncomfortable Truths in Software Engineering

#301

Post by kompatible »

db48x wrote: post #25
delecti wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Capitalism is a handful of people who own the means of production and the rest of us trying to get by. The bad apples exploiting it are the people who own the means of production, and saying they're the bad part of capitalism might as well be saying "capitalism is only bad because of what makes capitalism what it is".

You replied to that comment using a computer. That computer is the means of production for software. You own the means of production here. What have you been doing with that capability?

[flagged]

Re: Uncomfortable Truths in Software Engineering

#302

Post by avereveard »

EamonnMR wrote: post #158
WhompingWindows wrote: post #74

My Own Addition: 14. Those who code for a living make good money. I have a lot of friends who went into various fields, and it seems relative to the number of buttons we press daily, anyone who works on software makes great money. We didn't spend a ton of $ to go to medical school and 3 years of residency. We didn't go to law school and take the bar. Most of us went to 4 years, or less, of school, and here we are mak…

It feels like we're tradespeople being paid like businesspeople because we're in demand right now and it could change at any moment.

They been trying to transform programming into blu collar work since the first developer demanded more than minimum wage for their labour, with 4g languages and anyone can code movements and whatnot.

Thank gods while they're right - anyone can indeed write code - the valuable part of our labor is problem solving - and no amount of better tooling will change that.

Ultimately we are business people, we are accountants, we are tour operators and much more: our labor value is in the ability to transform these jobs into requirements and solutions, coding is how we describe our understanding of the domain, and it's production inconsequential once all the hard questions get resolved.

To bad today that gets a stench from the so called agile crowd, which would prefer us to tackle problem with aggressive randomness in the hope that infinite monkeys can be as cost effective as a single thinker.

Re: Uncomfortable Truths in Software Engineering

#303

Post by corysama »

overthemoon wrote: post #97

Is mobbing really better than pairing? I've never done it. Sounds awful. I got into this game to have long stretches of solitary work, that's when I'm at my best. Not entirely obviously, I still work on a team. Anyway, pairing can work well under the right circumstances, curious to hear anyone's take on whether mobbing works or not.

If you can do long stretches of solitary work without needing to ask questions of anyone else, do that!

But, I often work on features that require the knowledge and input of many people. I lose a lot of time getting blocked on simple things by not knowing what I don't know, figuring out what I'm missing, figuring what to ask, waiting for an answer, trying to implement something based on a brief reply, etc...

The few times I've managed to gather a grop to do something approximating mob programming were incredibly productive. The whole time it was 3 people discussing the main thread of code and 1 person off on their own "fixing up some detail". Who was off on their own changed frequently. We were using VSCode Live Share and Live Share Audio.

Re: Uncomfortable Truths in Software Engineering

#304

Post by corysama »

jrochkind1 wrote: post #154
lexicality wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've done it, it's significantly better in terms of software robustness and having a good time. You definitely get less code written than you would individually, but at the end of it everyone involved understands how the code works and why it conforms to the requirements which keeps your team's general knowledge high and turbocharges training for juniors. It's also just pleasant to do a genuine team activity and have…

This is some of the first I've heard of mobbing. Is it generally (or in your positive experiences) done remotely, in-person, or could be either?

The way it is promoted is a bunch of people in a room. But, I've done something similar using VSCode Live Share and Live Share Audio and it worked well.

Re: Uncomfortable Truths in Software Engineering

#305

Post by seoaeu »

pc86 wrote: post #265
Oregon893 wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you forgot what has been the single largest driver of salaries for most Europeans, unions and legistlation.

I'd rather be a software developer in the US than a teacher in Europe.

Sure. And I'd rather win the lottery than have socialized healthcare. Obviously it is better to be the beneficiary of income inequality in a country with large disparities of income than it is to work a "normal" job in a more equal society.

Re: Uncomfortable Truths in Software Engineering

#306

Post by opportune »

WhompingWindows wrote: post #74

My Own Addition: 14. Those who code for a living make good money. I have a lot of friends who went into various fields, and it seems relative to the number of buttons we press daily, anyone who works on software makes great money. We didn't spend a ton of $ to go to medical school and 3 years of residency. We didn't go to law school and take the bar. Most of us went to 4 years, or less, of school, and here we are mak…

Personally I went into software because it has the highest pay/effort and I think this is becoming even more common for younger generations.

Re: Uncomfortable Truths in Software Engineering

#307

Post by exolymph »

Uehreka wrote: post #300
selestify wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's based on the assumption that if all cultural factors were removed, an equal number of men and women would be in software engineering. And so, by modus tollens, the current gender ratio of the industry is a damning indicator of how much cultural bias still needs to be fought against. Personally I think that's a flawed assumption. While there are certainly cultural biases at play still, there are also aggr…

It’s definitely a fraught topic, but if you go in using loaded language like “fetishism” to describe a position that many people have rationally arrived at in good faith, then yeah people are going to call you a jerk. Part of the reason that I don’t think your paragraph 1 assumption is flawed is that there is evidence that men and women were equally interested in programming before the 80’s, but that a combination of…

> there is evidence that men and women were equally interested in programming before the 80’s, but that a combination of cultural and societal factors came into play in that decade that branded computers as a "boy thing" and resulted in women being pressured out of the pipeline from a young age.

The nature of "programming" as an activity also changed quite a bit.

Re: Uncomfortable Truths in Software Engineering

#308

Post by MathCodeLove »

Uehreka wrote: post #300
selestify wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's based on the assumption that if all cultural factors were removed, an equal number of men and women would be in software engineering. And so, by modus tollens, the current gender ratio of the industry is a damning indicator of how much cultural bias still needs to be fought against. Personally I think that's a flawed assumption. While there are certainly cultural biases at play still, there are also aggr…

It’s definitely a fraught topic, but if you go in using loaded language like “fetishism” to describe a position that many people have rationally arrived at in good faith, then yeah people are going to call you a jerk. Part of the reason that I don’t think your paragraph 1 assumption is flawed is that there is evidence that men and women were equally interested in programming before the 80’s, but that a combination of…

You're correct about my language choice, I could (and should) have used more neutral language to describe my position. While I do believe that there are some fundamental differences in the interests and abilities of the genders (neither for better nor worse, they just are) I also agree that's its a slippery slope that has been abused in the past. Societal pressures and conditioning certainly play a role, however I think if you look at the lower-end of the job market the difference is clearer. Women tend to dominate retail work as well as waitress/hostess positions while men tend to dominate more labor intensive positions like construction, welding, modern day factory work etc. Is this due to some rampant discrimination in those fields or is it due to inherit biological/psychological differences in men and women? I'd be inclined to say the later. There are no pushes happening in the bottom end of the job market due lessen the gender disparity because those aren't as desirable positions so no one really cares that more men work in construction and more women are servers at restaurants. However when the position becomes more prestigious with higher pay it's suddenly a huge issue that a disparity exists - and obviously it's due to discrimination and has nothing to due with what each gender is naturally inclined to pursue or enjoy.

You're right in that it's important not to automatically ascribe any demographic disparity to fundamental differences between the genders, but it's equally important to not automatically ascribe that difference to discrimination without considering those fundamental differences.

Re: Uncomfortable Truths in Software Engineering

#309

Post by opportune »

ryandvm wrote: post #143
dpeck wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re not wrong, but I’ll say the part about not going into it for the money is becoming less and less true all the time. For developers who are ~35 and up, almost 100% true, once you get younger than that you’ll find that there are a large and growing minority of people who are very much in it for the money alone without any particular interest or affinity for computing. Their parents, advisors, etc saw how much mo…

What I always tell people thinking about a software engineering career is that, yes, it's great money but I strongly advise only doing it if you actually like working with computers. Otherwise it's going to be a nightmare. Working as a software developer without a passion for coding is kind of like doing math homework every day for the rest of your life.

I don’t really agree with this. I don’t love coding but I think I’m pretty good at it (and all the other parts of being a software engineer). I am still very happy I chose this job even though coding is “meh” for me in terms of enjoyment.

I don’t think this is particularly unusual either. Lots of people don’t code outside their day job, even the really good ones, IME. And look at other jobs - I doubt most plumbers, linemen, bricklayers, etc really find their job enjoyable. But they might still be happy with their career because they don’t hate it, they’re good at it, and it pays the bills.

Re: Uncomfortable Truths in Software Engineering

#310

Post by verall »

MathCodeLove wrote: post #294
verall wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My close friend interned at a small embedded devices company and was the only woman besides a part time HR employee. People made comments about the HR employee when she wasn't around. Is this "pretty open discrimination"? It certainly doesn't make the cut for news. But yes it's very uncomfortable to be the only woman in that situation, people wok look at you for approval for their comments.

People talk about other people all the time - regardless of gender. I would guarantee they talked about male employees as well but your friend likely didn't mentally catalogue those discussions because they weren't relevant to her. Confirmation bias is very real. Maybe this one specific anecdote you're providing really was an example of rampant discrimination - I don't know - either way it certainly isn't indicative…

No, discrimination and x-ism is not neccesary to make an environment that women don't want to work at, only sufficient.

People being regular-shitty, combined with context, like making comments about the appearance and intelligence of the only other woman in the office, can create an inhospitable environment that forces women out. Companies that wish to hire and retain women should proactively create a hospitable environment or situations like above will occur.

The bigger thing is that it seems like you don't see return on investment into creating these better environments. Do you feel that diversity initiatives are wholly unnecessary or just poorly designed/targeted?

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