Earlier quoted context omitted.
The issue is the same in reverse. I've heard horrible anecdotes by male friends in female dominated industries such as teaching, nursing, etc. Why is the same societal push not happening in those industries? I never said we shouldn't strive to be welcoming and to cultivate a friendly environment for all, just that the intentional push for more of any specific demographic seems strange to me. Shitty people are going t…
(Rereading, I'm not actually sure we disagree, but the tone of the parent post seems to be that I can't change things because people won't change, ...?) I'm in tech, I work on fixing tech. > the intentional push for more of any specific demographic seems strange to me I believe the skewed demographics is a reflection of actions and pressures I don't agree with. I think there is pretty-open discrimination and steering…
Uncomfortable Truths in Software Engineering
241–250 of 400 posts
Re: Uncomfortable Truths in Software Engineering
#242Earlier quoted context omitted.
> And yet, their jobs are ESSENTIAL and we need people to do them even though they're grueling and underpaid. I think this touches on an uncomfortable point that many people don’t acknowledge: our current system generally* pays people according to how much they contribute to the economy and not by how much they contribute to society . The scalable nature of software means developers can disproportionately add value t…
At the risk of adding to his number 12... this is capitalism.
The U.S. often sends their best and brightest to tech, consulting, law, and medicine. Other societies send theirs to education. Both can occur under capitalism. I would argue it’s not “capitalism” but that the economy is most valued. Capitalism could just as well make social workers the highest paid individuals if there was a different value construct.
Re: Uncomfortable Truths in Software Engineering
#243Well if we're just gonna bash software guys here.... The arrogance stands out for me. I have worked in many different fields and with a range of engineers (EE,ME,CE), none come close to the general aura of big ego and arrogance around software guys. It's similar to the levels seen in finance guys. Its like there has to be some relationship between compensation and true value, where ego makes up the difference. Of cou…
This is likely (imo) due to the fact that mastery is gained somewhat independently and not subject to any pseudo-objective critical review (beyond 'my device x works!'), and no professional rigors are selecting for different (professional) mindsets. 'Those that don't know that they don't know' and all that.
To amplify, a cognitive worker in an established discipline is buried under domain details and painfully aware of the scope of their field. They specialize, and are certified for that specialization. Their ego is better informed about the realities of their extent of knowledge, and yes, they paid dearly to get schooled and certified for their narrow niche. (So you have the inverse effect of possibly insufferable attitudes of experts regarding novel developments and ideas in their specialization.)
Re: Uncomfortable Truths in Software Engineering
#244Earlier quoted context omitted.
> While capitalism doesn’t lend well to maintaining open source software (which I find to be a surprising comment given that GitHub exists) Github doesn't maintain the open source software they host. > it does lend well to things like having a house Capitalism isn't the originating point of houses though. However, it is the originating point of mortgages, and the massive profits banks draw off of them. I'd say it's a…
> Github doesn't maintain the open source software they host. Right but they host it. And before Github hosted it and made money doing so we didn't have a great distribution mechanism for open source software. > Capitalism isn't the originating point of houses though. However, it is the originating point of mortgages, and the massive profits banks draw off of them. I'd say it's a double-edged sword on that front It's…
That's true, and I'm glad they do that, though I'm under no pretence that they do it out of altruism or anything like that. Again, it's not that everything is bad under capitalism, but that incentives are aligned badly, and tend towards rent-seeking, exploitation and so on. Good things do still happen when the incentives work out alright.
> The scenario here is not: "get a free house" or "banks make massive profits on houses". So it's a bit of a false dichotomy you've created.
I didn't set up that dichotomy, I just said that capitalism didn't invent the house. There are alternative models of housing, like housing cooperatives, and historically houses were not built by corporations to put on the market, but by the government, by local workers, by communities etc - there are many historic models of home construction.
> Norway or another country and while they do have democratic socialism as a government system, they still employ capitalism as their economic model.
This is true (except the part where they're democratic socialist - they're actually social democracies, which is to say capitalism plus strong welfare, but close enough) - but your claim that these countries are the "most capitalist" was incorrect. Typically speaking, more versus less capitalism is an axis of laissez-faire capitalism, which is to say "the most capitalist" would be a neoliberal free market, and "the least capitalist", while still being capitalist, would be a strong social democracy like the Scandinavian model, where capitalism is quite heavily constrained. You might have seen other resources that use these terms differently, but that's what I was thinking.
I think there's a few pretty serious issues with capitalism that, left unaddressed, will cause serious material and social harm. Also, I don't think that we can resolve the climate change crisis through pricing in emissions through something like cap and trade. I think we solve it practically through changing how we live, trying to reduce emissions systemically while aiming to maintain or even improve living standards. One example would be mixed land development coupled with better urban transit, to reduce car usage - but both the car lobby and the fossil fuel lobby will block this, due to the nature of regulatory capture (an inherent problem with capitalism). Even switching to EVs doesn't solve the issue of rare earth mining using exploitative labour (eg cobalt mining by child slaves) - because neocolonialism is another problem caused by capitalism.
The problem in my mind is that there are few good alternatives or steps forward - 20th century attempts at socialism were a catastrophe. My assumption is that we're just going to charge through climate change headfirst until the environment is ruined beyond repair.
Re: Uncomfortable Truths in Software Engineering
#245Is mobbing really better than pairing? I've never done it. Sounds awful. I got into this game to have long stretches of solitary work, that's when I'm at my best. Not entirely obviously, I still work on a team. Anyway, pairing can work well under the right circumstances, curious to hear anyone's take on whether mobbing works or not.
This was the only statement in the article I disagreed with.
8. Kinda. Only when the new ideas impact intra-team boundaries.
8.2 - No. Formal methods will one day be mainstream. We're still learning how to agree on what constitutes the optimal syntax for software. We are getting closer, then will come the optimal forms.
10.1 - No. The Unreasonable Man Theory applies here. It's not better for software that they have to encounter nor for the industry in general (not that I agree with any of the specific paradigms mentioned).
10.2 - I see it differently. Probably because developers require evidence that their life will be easier by adopting specific behaviors. That's hard to do over long periods of time, especially when the esoteric practices are both partly codified ad-hoc choices and partly useful. See item 8.
11. No. If your interviews are over 2hours, your 'loop' is reflecting problems in your organization. When you hire an engineering manager, do they interview every single person they are going to be managing to see if they like them before taking their new job? C'mon.
12. No. Just because it's a problem doesn't mean it's solvable or needs to be solved. Laying effect at the feet of the cause is reasonable. This response is uncharacteristically unreasonable.
13. No. This has already happened (Max 737), so not even then.
Re: Uncomfortable Truths in Software Engineering
#246> TDD/FP/Agile zealots So his phrasing is a little hard to follow here, but I take this as being part of the ongoing TDD backlash, which is unfortunate because in my 30 years of experience, the opposite of TDD is "not testing anything at all". Or rather, when somebody pushes back against TDD, they usually push back against any form of unit testing. The net result is that the code itself is difficult to impossible to…
You don't need to cover all bases, in 99% of software. (And in the 1% where you do, you should probably be using formal verification.)
Testing is an investment and should be analyzed in terms of ROI. There is a cost to writing tests in advance, a cost to fixing bugs after writing the code, and a cost to shipping software with bugs left unfixed on rare codepaths. Sometimes TDD yields high returns indeed (usually for "library code" that (a) does something very complicated on a complex data structure; (b) is easily isolated from the rest of the system without writing tons of mocking infrastructure; (c) has a stable API that is not frequently refactored.) Often it does not. I've found that a combination of static assertions, black-box systems testing, and incrementally adding regression tests during debugging allows me to develop good code more efficiently than TDD the vast majority of the time. Your mileage may vary, of course.
Re: Uncomfortable Truths in Software Engineering
#247Earlier quoted context omitted.
I've only ever done it in person and I can't imagine it would work particularly well remotely. Maybe you could attempt to recreate the experience in VR but I don't think we have anywhere near the technology level to accurately recreate 7 people physically in the same space as each other constantly moving around, having side conversations and whiteboarding things
I've experienced it working well-enough in groups of 3-4, depending on everyone having decent internet at that time and on the software used. Just like regular mobbing IMO there's some circumstances where it'll feel like the right method, if it's a method you've occasionally practiced. Here's some free marketing, I am not affiliated with any of these co.s: The best tool I've used for multiple users was CoScreen, beca…
Re: Uncomfortable Truths in Software Engineering
#248Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think the real calculus should be do something that interests you, but also consider ROI and if education cost is worth it. Most of the people I know with the worst financial outcomes overpaid to study stuff they didn’t care much about (and isn’t marketable or often even valuable) because they thought it was what they were supposed to do.
Eh, I'd go beyond that and say invest in yourself first and foremost, but I've been VERY SCREWED after trying to make decent financial choices. 1.) I was into computers and programming in the 90s but I was too young for the dot-com boom, so by the time I could work we were in the bust. So computers weren't a 'safe' ROI. 2.) So I went into languages and wanted to be a diplomat: I studied rare languages to be more valu…
I can't find any agreement on who first said that, but it appears that several great generals have said something like that.
Re: Uncomfortable Truths in Software Engineering
#249Re: Uncomfortable Truths in Software Engineering
#250Earlier quoted context omitted.
great is a relative term. It's much better than feudalism, and certainly better than the most prominent socialisms that've been tried (USSR, China etc). However, it does not align incentives towards the things we think are "good", like maintaining open source software, securing software, etc - so it certainly isn't ideal.
Anything democratic devolves to oligarchy. A monarchy with an effective ruler selection process is probably best. There’s a reason most successful companies have a single CEO with absolute power - and they degrade once this is no longer true. It certainly has a large risk of tyranny though.
> A monarchy with an effective ruler selection process is probably best.
That's called an election.