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Uncomfortable Truths in Software Engineering

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Re: Uncomfortable Truths in Software Engineering

#231

Post by waylandsmithers »

overthemoon wrote: post #97

Is mobbing really better than pairing? I've never done it. Sounds awful. I got into this game to have long stretches of solitary work, that's when I'm at my best. Not entirely obviously, I still work on a team. Anyway, pairing can work well under the right circumstances, curious to hear anyone's take on whether mobbing works or not.

I've done it with 4 people on a team where occasionally there would be one blocking story before anything else could move forward, so we'd all just jump on zoom. I was never the one in control. It was really hard to keep focused, but the task at hand got done, and it was easy for people to take a break for a few minutes while things continued to move forward.

Re: Uncomfortable Truths in Software Engineering

#232

Post by notreallyserio »

StevePerkins wrote: post #200
AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I frequently have to pause while typing and wait for my pocket-supercomputer to catch up and actually give me feedback like putting text on the damn screen. Multi-second non-interactable pauses are not uncommon at all. If that isn't "unresponsive" I'd really like to know what is . The ad thing I admit might be a touch hyperbolic.

I have never experienced input lag on a iPhone, other than perhaps a context where the input is traversing across an Internet connection. And I assure you that a C64 with a 300 baud modem had that issue, too.

Yeah but that 300 baud modem is connected to another computer. I'm just typing on this somewhat laggy phone inside a textarea -- which while worse than a C64, isn't usually so bad that I regularly notice.

Re: Uncomfortable Truths in Software Engineering

#233

Post by Mezzie »

gonehome wrote: post #224
Mezzie wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Post 2008, I'd say. I was a 2010 graduate, and the change between 'do what you love' and 'College is for MONEY' was like a culture bomb going off.

I think the real calculus should be do something that interests you, but also consider ROI and if education cost is worth it. Most of the people I know with the worst financial outcomes overpaid to study stuff they didn’t care much about (and isn’t marketable or often even valuable) because they thought it was what they were supposed to do.

Eh, I'd go beyond that and say invest in yourself first and foremost, but I've been VERY SCREWED after trying to make decent financial choices.

1.) I was into computers and programming in the 90s but I was too young for the dot-com boom, so by the time I could work we were in the bust. So computers weren't a 'safe' ROI.

2.) So I went into languages and wanted to be a diplomat: I studied rare languages to be more valuable (Arabic and Chinese), went to the Middle East, and planned. Except that it turns out that basically required either law school or a bunch of unpaid internships I couldn't take since this was post 2008 and everything was hell/the competition was insane, so I dropped that plan and continued library work.

3.) I recovered from losing that dream and went to grad school for Library and Information Sciences. I did a focus on assessment/metrics/KPIs + tech (so databases, HCI, and UX research) with an intent on pursing an academic librarian career and building academic tech tools on the side. My first job out of grad school was at an Ivy. I got what ended up being MS my last semester of grad school and had to quit to see to my health.

4.) I finally managed to find decent employment and get health care (MS drugs cost 300k/yr)... in 2019. Then COVID. Luckily I'm still employed, but it did throw out ALL of my career planning post MS-diagnosis.

At this point, I've just given up on planning. It's worthless. The minute you or someone you love gets sick, or you get a divorce, or a disaster hits your house (which you won't get help for), you're going to lose it all anyway. I'm just picking up as many skills as possible and hoping one basket doesn't break.

Re: Uncomfortable Truths in Software Engineering

#234

Post by kk6mrp »

dpeck wrote: post #87
WhompingWindows wrote: post #74

My Own Addition: 14. Those who code for a living make good money. I have a lot of friends who went into various fields, and it seems relative to the number of buttons we press daily, anyone who works on software makes great money. We didn't spend a ton of $ to go to medical school and 3 years of residency. We didn't go to law school and take the bar. Most of us went to 4 years, or less, of school, and here we are mak…

You’re not wrong, but I’ll say the part about not going into it for the money is becoming less and less true all the time. For developers who are ~35 and up, almost 100% true, once you get younger than that you’ll find that there are a large and growing minority of people who are very much in it for the money alone without any particular interest or affinity for computing. Their parents, advisors, etc saw how much mo…

It feels to me like most people no longer find fulfillment in their work, regardless what it is. It really seems like almost everyone is in it for the money and could care less about the lack of craftsmanship.

Re: Uncomfortable Truths in Software Engineering

#235

Post by bluGill »

formerly_proven wrote: post #56
bluGill wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After using python and C++ in production for more than 10 years I'll reach for python for trivial things, but for something complex give my C++ over python! Yes C++ has awful syntax full of footguns, but at least I can change a large project. At 50k lines of code python becomes something you can't change for fear of some 1 in a million path that will only break after it hits production. Static types means that C++ wo…

I too have C++ experience and would never take "it compiles" as a sign that it'll work. I don't dispute that there are languages which have sufficiently powerful and complex type systems and compilers that enable you to model significant amounts of domain constraints such that you feel you don't "need" tests, because it'll probably work if it compiles (though I'd argue that you really ought to still have tests to ver…

True. I have more confidence my c++ works with 50% code coverage in tests than python with 100% coverage.

I try to model my domain in C++'s types. it isn't easy, but even avoiding int and bool helps a lot to ensure my code doesn't make stupid mistakes. Haskell would give me more power, but I'm moving my C++ in that direction.

Re: Uncomfortable Truths in Software Engineering

#236

Post by zeroonetwothree »

endisneigh wrote: post #110
sudhirj wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference here is usually leverage. A teacher spending an hour to teach one child teaches one child, but a programmer who spends an hour writing code to generate a dollar’s worth of value can have that run thousands of times a second or 24/7 even when they’re sleeping. Of course teachers who understand this also make money, see Miss Excel ( https://www.instagram.com/miss.excel/?hl=en ), who was/is making $100k a…

I disagree - the difference isn’t leverage it’s monetize-ability. If teachers were paid a lifetime percentage of their students earnings teachers would make far more than software engineers. Barring some cultural revolution that’s not going to happen. Software engineers simply make more money because the companies they work for have high margins.

This assumes there’s actually a significant benefit from school on lifetime earnings, which is at best debatable if not actually at odds with all available research.

Re: Uncomfortable Truths in Software Engineering

#237

Post by pradn »

kk6mrp wrote: post #234
dpeck wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re not wrong, but I’ll say the part about not going into it for the money is becoming less and less true all the time. For developers who are ~35 and up, almost 100% true, once you get younger than that you’ll find that there are a large and growing minority of people who are very much in it for the money alone without any particular interest or affinity for computing. Their parents, advisors, etc saw how much mo…

It feels to me like most people no longer find fulfillment in their work, regardless what it is. It really seems like almost everyone is in it for the money and could care less about the lack of craftsmanship.

A lot of that seems like it comes from the company or industries not seeming to care about the worker: bad work environments, precarious jobs, stress, working on something commercially useful but not otherwise meaningful.

Re: Uncomfortable Truths in Software Engineering

#238

Post by bluGill »

hasmolo wrote: post #60
bluGill wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After using python and C++ in production for more than 10 years I'll reach for python for trivial things, but for something complex give my C++ over python! Yes C++ has awful syntax full of footguns, but at least I can change a large project. At 50k lines of code python becomes something you can't change for fear of some 1 in a million path that will only break after it hits production. Static types means that C++ wo…

i think your expertise in C++ might be affecting your view of python more than expected. i used to feel this way about languages other than my « primary » one and it turned out i just wasn’t as good at others and blamed the language for it

I have enough experience in python to know where the limits are. I've done more C++ for sure, but I have done a fair amount of python. I still reach for python for small projects where I'm not expecting over 10k lines of code.

Re: Uncomfortable Truths in Software Engineering

#239

Post by cma »

kk6mrp wrote: post #234
dpeck wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re not wrong, but I’ll say the part about not going into it for the money is becoming less and less true all the time. For developers who are ~35 and up, almost 100% true, once you get younger than that you’ll find that there are a large and growing minority of people who are very much in it for the money alone without any particular interest or affinity for computing. Their parents, advisors, etc saw how much mo…

It feels to me like most people no longer find fulfillment in their work, regardless what it is. It really seems like almost everyone is in it for the money and could care less about the lack of craftsmanship.

It is hard to imagine e.g. Google devs are enthusiastic about manipulative ads or blocking parts of Linux from developers in a software lock-in scheme.

Re: Uncomfortable Truths in Software Engineering

#240

Post by AlwaysRock »

Mezzie wrote: post #222
gonehome wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m 31 and at least in my age bracket most of the people I was in CS with weren’t the money crowd. I’d believe it’s true now (I don’t really know), but it’s likely more recent than the OP thinks.

Post 2008, I'd say. I was a 2010 graduate, and the change between 'do what you love' and 'College is for MONEY' was like a culture bomb going off.

Yeah graduating at a time where even a "useful" degree couldnt get you a job will do that.
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