Uncomfortable Truths in Software Engineering • Hacker News Board

Re: Uncomfortable Truths in Software Engineering

#211

Post by Mezzie » Wed, Dec 15, 2021, 3:40 PM UTC

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #111

> But especially so with me, given I care about weird exotic technology at the boundary of programming. Smells a bit like a humblebrag. Here's mine: But especially so with me, given I care about extremely high-Quality software. > Also also also, most muggles don’t want to program their own computers, much in the same way that most muggles don’t want to do their own taxes or wire their own houses. This is true, but I'…

> This is true, but I'm uncomfortable referring to non-techs as "muggles." Some of the least-computer-tech-savvy people I know, are doctors, lawyers, and scientists (and I actually know quite a few).

Agreed. As a tech educator, STOP. I've been teaching people to use technology for decades, and, like with math, a huge stumbling block is "I'm not smart enough for this; only 'tech people' can understand this." And no, not everybody wants to develop algorithms or web pages (or fully wire their house), but most people can learn basics of how things work and look for ways to improve their experience.

Also that analogy doesn't work: most people don't want to wire their own house, but being able to do basic problem-solving on your electricity saves the homeowner time and money AND lets electricians spend their time on bigger problems. Same with taxes, as somebody who isn't an accountant but does do my own taxes: Not everybody will do that, but most people could definitely learn how things like tax brackets work.

This guy is a computer nerd. That's fine, but it doesn't make you INHERENTLY BETTER than people who are color theory nerds or whatever.

Re: Uncomfortable Truths in Software Engineering

#212

Post by lazyjeff » Wed, Dec 15, 2021, 3:41 PM UTC

the_gastropod wrote: post #57

emteycz wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ruby had a huge hype, then its growth slowed down and now it's falling behind quickly. Yeah it's big, but other frameworks that chose a different path w.r.t. metaprogramming seem to be the more popular (and growing) choice today.

While that may be true, I'm not sure that's evidence that DSL's are the reason. I would argue the explanation is: JavaScript. I think many people are compelled by the idea that you can learn one language, and handle both back and front-end development. As the language has improved over the past ~10 years, this angle has only become more compelling, and has eaten into the popularity of other "traditional" web framewor…

I was about to say as well, JavaScript, SQL, were both niche DSLs that are now mainstream enough that people prep them for general software development interviews.

JavaScript is now a general language, but maybe the most popular DSLs break out of that once they've gained a certain mindshare, at which point they're no longer a DSL.

Re: Uncomfortable Truths in Software Engineering

#213

Post by MathCodeLove » Wed, Dec 15, 2021, 3:45 PM UTC

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #190

MathCodeLove wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand this weird fetishism with getting X demographic into software/tech. Naturally I don't think that any demographic should be restricted from entering the field, and everyone should be equally encouraged and provided the same opportunities, but more and more I see these pushes for trying to pump the numbers of specific demographics. If someone wants to join the industry, great. If not, also great. I t…

> I don't understand this weird fetishism with getting X demographic into software/tech. Perspective is valuable, and like it or not various demographics have inherently different perspectives due to a variety of factors. We need conscious effort to include more demographics because our industry is dominated by a very small number of them and therefore its culture is heavily biased towards them.

This is a valid point, and I don't disagree that perspective is incredibly valuable. I just don't know if we've been going about it the right way. If someone is interested in technology, then we should make sure that it's as accessible to them as it is to anyone else. Yet, along with varying perspectives among varying demographics comes different interests and aspirations. In the process of pushing what we think other demographics should be aspiring to do are we not drowning out their own interests and aspirations? Are we not simultaneously warping the perspective we seek into one that more closely aligns with our own? It's 2021, anyone can google "well paying careers" see "software development" on the list and decide to pursue it. It should happen naturally, we should absolutely facilitate and encourage that natural convergence, but I think the artificial push is just as harmful as it is helpful.

Re: Uncomfortable Truths in Software Engineering

#214

Post by avgDev » Wed, Dec 15, 2021, 3:45 PM UTC

zerocount wrote: post #171

WhompingWindows wrote: post #74

My Own Addition: 14. Those who code for a living make good money. I have a lot of friends who went into various fields, and it seems relative to the number of buttons we press daily, anyone who works on software makes great money. We didn't spend a ton of $ to go to medical school and 3 years of residency. We didn't go to law school and take the bar. Most of us went to 4 years, or less, of school, and here we are mak…

I would gladly give up software development for a medical or law degree. I would gladly study for a bar exam or do a medical internship instead of grinding Leetcode and throwing salt over my shoulder or some other good luck inducing act, in the hope of passing the often subjective, 'are you a fit', can you design and code Z in the next 38 minutes type interview. The barrier of entry is way too low these days and ther…

I know people saving up and getting out of the medical field, as it became extremely toxic in the US. Expensive and mostly ran by huge corporate entities seeking profit.

I would much rather click on a computer.

Re: Uncomfortable Truths in Software Engineering

#215

Post by notreallyserio » Wed, Dec 15, 2021, 3:46 PM UTC

MathCodeLove wrote: post #206

vlovich123 wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the general perception is that women often get turned off not by the work, but by the male-dominated environments. This can be due to subtle issues and sometimes due to non-subtle issues. You want to go out of your way to make it a friendly environment in those cases. Basically, do you want women to have the same shitty experience when they were breaking through various male-dominated fields in the past (e.g.…

The issue is the same in reverse. I've heard horrible anecdotes by male friends in female dominated industries such as teaching, nursing, etc. Why is the same societal push not happening in those industries? I never said we shouldn't strive to be welcoming and to cultivate a friendly environment for all, just that the intentional push for more of any specific demographic seems strange to me. Shitty people are going t…

Are you sure the current campaigns aren't effective? The demographics are indeed changing. I know causation correlation blah blah, but we're just speculating in this thread, supplying no data anyway.

Re: Uncomfortable Truths in Software Engineering

#216

Post by gonehome » Wed, Dec 15, 2021, 3:49 PM UTC

Mezzie wrote: post #133

dpeck wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re not wrong, but I’ll say the part about not going into it for the money is becoming less and less true all the time. For developers who are ~35 and up, almost 100% true, once you get younger than that you’ll find that there are a large and growing minority of people who are very much in it for the money alone without any particular interest or affinity for computing. Their parents, advisors, etc saw how much mo…

Agreed. I spend a lot of time on TikTok (my main interests tech-wise are HCI, digital discovery, and social computing so it's like catnip) and a LOT of younger people are going into tech for the money. I'm 33 and I started programming in the 90s (I was raised by two geek parents a la Larry Page who were supportive), so I'm sort of in-between the two 'generations'. At age 37 and above, pretty much everybody is either…

I’m 31 and at least in my age bracket most of the people I was in CS with weren’t the money crowd.

I’d believe it’s true now (I don’t really know), but it’s likely more recent than the OP thinks.

Re: Uncomfortable Truths in Software Engineering

#217

Post by notreallyserio » Wed, Dec 15, 2021, 3:49 PM UTC

gampleman wrote: post #96

dpeck wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re not wrong, but I’ll say the part about not going into it for the money is becoming less and less true all the time. For developers who are ~35 and up, almost 100% true, once you get younger than that you’ll find that there are a large and growing minority of people who are very much in it for the money alone without any particular interest or affinity for computing. Their parents, advisors, etc saw how much mo…

Perhaps this will paradoxically be a good thing. I have for a long time been wondering if or to what extent are the reports of ageism in the industry well founded. If it turns out that hiring older developers gets you a much higher likelihood of getting someone who cares, this might change matters significantly (assuming of course that there actually is a problem in the first place).

I expect this to change radically as the entry level 6-figure crowd gets older. Speaking for myself, my ability to care about my work is inversely proportional to my retirement account balances, and I want out asap. Software development and the internet in general isn't fun any more and there are things I'd rather do.

Re: Uncomfortable Truths in Software Engineering

#218

Post by fn-mote » Wed, Dec 15, 2021, 3:52 PM UTC

SamoyedFurFluff wrote: post #188

MathCodeLove wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand this weird fetishism with getting X demographic into software/tech. Naturally I don't think that any demographic should be restricted from entering the field, and everyone should be equally encouraged and provided the same opportunities, but more and more I see these pushes for trying to pump the numbers of specific demographics. If someone wants to join the industry, great. If not, also great. I t…

It’s hard to know if an environment is hostile to you or not if there are no examples of safety. For example I would hesitate to join a magic the gathering group if I didn’t first check that they’re friendly to newbies. Especially because I know magic the gathering can vary in experience and that a group that isn’t friendly is not an outlier. If I think about it this way I can understand why a woman might not want to…

> I can understand why a woman might not want to join a company with no other > women engineers; how is she supposed to know she’ll be treated with respect

Hate to say it, but 0 female engineers _is_ evidence...

The assumption going in changes from "this is going to be ok" to "what is wrong with this workplace?"

(Of course this depends on team size, etc., but this is my own personal read going in.)

Re: Uncomfortable Truths in Software Engineering

#219

Post by MathCodeLove » Wed, Dec 15, 2021, 3:52 PM UTC

notreallyserio wrote: post #215

MathCodeLove wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is the same in reverse. I've heard horrible anecdotes by male friends in female dominated industries such as teaching, nursing, etc. Why is the same societal push not happening in those industries? I never said we shouldn't strive to be welcoming and to cultivate a friendly environment for all, just that the intentional push for more of any specific demographic seems strange to me. Shitty people are going t…

Are you sure the current campaigns aren't effective? The demographics are indeed changing. I know causation correlation blah blah, but we're just speculating in this thread, supplying no data anyway.

I'm sure they're effective to some degree in terms of recruitment numbers. What I was alluding to in that comment was that the current campaigns likely won't dramatically reduce the number of "horror stories" we hear - which is the crux of the entire issue. The people that are the antagonist in those horror stories tend not to change their way's based on social media movements. Whereas, the people who are interacting with and encouraging those movements would likely never find themselves in the antagonist shoes anyway. It's a very small subset of the population that would actually see those movements and decide to change as a result, and that's better than none, but it's certainly not what I think most people supporting those movements wish to see as a result.

Edit: grammar

Re: Uncomfortable Truths in Software Engineering

#220

Post by ryandrake » Wed, Dec 15, 2021, 3:53 PM UTC

v77 wrote: post #104

dpeck wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re not wrong, but I’ll say the part about not going into it for the money is becoming less and less true all the time. For developers who are ~35 and up, almost 100% true, once you get younger than that you’ll find that there are a large and growing minority of people who are very much in it for the money alone without any particular interest or affinity for computing. Their parents, advisors, etc saw how much mo…

I'm in my 40's and my graduating comp sci class was the biggest in history at that time because of the money people were making in the first dot com boom.

Not sure how it is today, but for me in the mid-90s, there was a lot of interest in software and computer degrees, but the curriculum was sufficiently difficult to filter out the posers. I went to a huge state school, and our first year Comp Sci class was, not exaggerating, an auditorium-sized lecture of 1000+ students dreaming about becoming a Microsoft Millionaire. Most of the students didn't make it through hello_world.c. We also had requirements like Linear Algebra, Matrix Theory, MOSFETs, Linear Systems, and Signal Processing. The electives were all very tough, too. By the time we graduated, there were about 30-40 of us. So, there was a lot of interest, but most didn't actually graduate with the major.