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Uncomfortable Truths in Software Engineering

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Re: Uncomfortable Truths in Software Engineering

#121
post #46
post #42

This one from the article is a bit weird: > Sophisticated DSLs with special syntax are probably a dead-end. Ruby and Scala both leaned hard into this and neither got it to catch on. Rails is one of the most popular web frameworks around and a combo of Rails and Ruby power some really high traffic / high importance platforms like GitHub, Shopify and Stripe's API.

Ruby had a huge hype, then its growth slowed down and now it's falling behind quickly. Yeah it's big, but other frameworks that chose a different path w.r.t. metaprogramming seem to be the more popular (and growing) choice today.

That's a category error. Ruby is not a framework.

Re: Uncomfortable Truths in Software Engineering

#122

My Own Addition: 14. Those who code for a living make good money. I have a lot of friends who went into various fields, and it seems relative to the number of buttons we press daily, anyone who works on software makes great money. We didn't spend a ton of $ to go to medical school and 3 years of residency. We didn't go to law school and take the bar. Most of us went to 4 years, or less, of school, and here we are mak…

There has never been a 1:1 relationship between how essential a job is, nor how difficult it is, and the pay. It's mostly about a) the barriers to entry, which can be academic (law, medicine), regulatory (law, medicine, probably finance?), institutional (finance, tier 1 law), or just how grueling it is to get through (definitely medicine outside of some specialties like family med or peds, probably tier 1 finance/IB too); b) leverage/BATNA. A is more systemic - it drives wages up or down as an industry and is why a family med doctor makes $200k/yr but a radiologist makes $600k/yr. B is more localized, if I have a lot of leverage or my BATNA is "sit on a beach and drink" I might pull a $400k TC instead of $300k simply by waiting around for a better offer. The more people in my field have that opportunity, the more of a systemic pressure this has on wages.

Anyone can be a teacher. The certification requirements are low. The academic requirements aren't anything more than most kids are getting anyway (a degree in anything will qualify you in most US states). Most teachers need to work so their BATNA is "work someplace else doing the exact same thing for roughly the exact same amount of money." What's more (and I didn't really mention it above) is that you can't tie teaching directly to income. Not that you should be able to, but if you're a quant at an HFT shop you can probably draw a line with a pen from your code to tens of millions of dollars in profit that's there this year that wasn't there last year. Do that year over year and it's hard to argue against you getting paid $800k-1M/yr in cash and bonuses. Helping one of your students read a little better, or finally understand linear algebra, isn't going to increase your personal bottom line at all.

Re: Uncomfortable Truths in Software Engineering

#124
post #92

My Own Addition: 14. Those who code for a living make good money. I have a lot of friends who went into various fields, and it seems relative to the number of buttons we press daily, anyone who works on software makes great money. We didn't spend a ton of $ to go to medical school and 3 years of residency. We didn't go to law school and take the bar. Most of us went to 4 years, or less, of school, and here we are mak…

The difference here is usually leverage. A teacher spending an hour to teach one child teaches one child, but a programmer who spends an hour writing code to generate a dollar’s worth of value can have that run thousands of times a second or 24/7 even when they’re sleeping. Of course teachers who understand this also make money, see Miss Excel ( https://www.instagram.com/miss.excel/?hl=en ), who was/is making $100k a…

This is nonsense of course. Teachers affect lives every day and those lives effect others. Your code is ephemeral and only exists in a digital realm. It's only as good as the next pull request.

Time to get over ourselves people.

Re: Uncomfortable Truths in Software Engineering

#125
post #76
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Counterpoint: life in communist countries is not known for being "not miserable".

That's the most irrelevant counterpoint that can be made here. "Communist" states were also totalitarian, i.e. undemocratic and that was the main reason for their ultimate failure. With democracy they'd be able to self-correct and likely switch to free[er] markets for example. Consumer software and Internet are probably the least regulated areas of engineering today, that's the problem. Compare that to aerospace, con…

> Regulation though is not part of the free market capitalism paradigm

Who told you that? People like to simplify views and say that people are "anti-regulation", but really people are anti-poorly-thought-out-regulation. What famous capitalist do you know that argued theft for example should be unregulated?

Re: Uncomfortable Truths in Software Engineering

#127

> But especially so with me, given I care about weird exotic technology at the boundary of programming. Smells a bit like a humblebrag. Here's mine: But especially so with me, given I care about extremely high-Quality software. > Also also also, most muggles don’t want to program their own computers, much in the same way that most muggles don’t want to do their own taxes or wire their own houses. This is true, but I'…

> We’re never going to get the broader SE culture to care about things like performance, compatibility, accessibility, security, or privacy, at least not without legal regulations that are enforced.

Which is why software as a skill in and of itself will go the way of mathematics. And then SE's might actually start doing real engineering.

Re: Uncomfortable Truths in Software Engineering

#128

Is mobbing really better than pairing? I've never done it. Sounds awful. I got into this game to have long stretches of solitary work, that's when I'm at my best. Not entirely obviously, I still work on a team. Anyway, pairing can work well under the right circumstances, curious to hear anyone's take on whether mobbing works or not.

It depends....if the mobbing is what my former agile consultants were pushing (having everyone from dev's to business analysts do it) then no, it doesn't work. The few places that I have seen it work sort of well is when there is some big issue going on such as a production outage that can be benefited from having a group of devs together looking at the issue. Aside from that the level of engagement goes down the more people you add to the session and it felt to have diminishing returns on the quality to developer count ratio.

Re: Uncomfortable Truths in Software Engineering

#129
post #104
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re not wrong, but I’ll say the part about not going into it for the money is becoming less and less true all the time. For developers who are ~35 and up, almost 100% true, once you get younger than that you’ll find that there are a large and growing minority of people who are very much in it for the money alone without any particular interest or affinity for computing. Their parents, advisors, etc saw how much mo…

I'm in my 40's and my graduating comp sci class was the biggest in history at that time because of the money people were making in the first dot com boom.

There was a bit of a downswing in CS degrees around the first DOTCOM bust, a lot of folks left programs at 2nd tier colleges and moved to adjacent but less “software” and “subject to outsourcing” like industrial engineering, electrical engineering.

I didn’t exactly have a broad view at the time, but it seemed like top ~20 Comp Sci programs were largely unaffected and kept growing the whole time.

Re: Uncomfortable Truths in Software Engineering

#130
post #92

My Own Addition: 14. Those who code for a living make good money. I have a lot of friends who went into various fields, and it seems relative to the number of buttons we press daily, anyone who works on software makes great money. We didn't spend a ton of $ to go to medical school and 3 years of residency. We didn't go to law school and take the bar. Most of us went to 4 years, or less, of school, and here we are mak…

The difference here is usually leverage. A teacher spending an hour to teach one child teaches one child, but a programmer who spends an hour writing code to generate a dollar’s worth of value can have that run thousands of times a second or 24/7 even when they’re sleeping. Of course teachers who understand this also make money, see Miss Excel ( https://www.instagram.com/miss.excel/?hl=en ), who was/is making $100k a…

"A teacher spending an hour to teach one child teaches one child"

Thats a tautology, not analysis.

A teacher spending an hour in front of 300 kids might create 300 buisinessmen, so have you accounted for their contributuon to the conomy?

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