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Uncomfortable Truths in Software Engineering

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Re: Uncomfortable Truths in Software Engineering

#91
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea I mean nothing is perfect. While capitalism doesn’t lend well to maintaining open source software (which I find to be a surprising comment given that GitHub exists) it does lend well to things like having a house, or being able to save money for retirement, or to creating markets where you get products you want. YC for example has enabled lots of founders to create brand new companies and services we all use. So…

> While capitalism doesn’t lend well to maintaining open source software (which I find to be a surprising comment given that GitHub exists) Github doesn't maintain the open source software they host. > it does lend well to things like having a house Capitalism isn't the originating point of houses though. However, it is the originating point of mortgages, and the massive profits banks draw off of them. I'd say it's a…

> Github doesn't maintain the open source software they host.

Right but they host it. And before Github hosted it and made money doing so we didn't have a great distribution mechanism for open source software.

> Capitalism isn't the originating point of houses though. However, it is the originating point of mortgages, and the massive profits banks draw off of them. I'd say it's a double-edged sword on that front

It's a hard thing because you also can't just go into the woods and cut down trees and build your own house anymore right? There's no "free property" so the times have changed. Banks might make massive profits on home loans, but at the same time without making a profit you won't give someone a loan for a house. Making a profit isn't really a big issue anyway.

The scenario here is not: "get a free house" or "banks make massive profits on houses". So it's a bit of a false dichotomy you've created.

> Those countries are social democracies - they invest a lot into welfare and the state. The US is probably the world's most capitalist country, that or South Korea. Both have terrible standards of living for poorer people.

> Fundamentally, the incentives of capital drive towards maximising profits and minimising costs - everything else is surplus to requirements. I'm not on board with the people who think capitalism is the worst thing ever, but its incentives are pretty bad and it's usually better off mixed with taxes, regulation, nationalisation etc into a mixed economy.

Yea this happens from time to time but people confuse government and economic systems. The US for example is a constitutional republic (or similar idk exactly) and uses the private means of production (capitalism) as its economic system. Take Norway or another country and while they do have democratic socialism as a government system, they still employ capitalism as their economic model. They have a stock market, people own factories or houses, and they sell their labor. And if you do some research (if you're interested) countries like that tend to rate even higher than the US on metrics of things like "the worlds most capitalistic economies", "the most entrepreneurial economies", the most "free economies", etc. I think your comment about regulation and taxes highlights this misunderstanding. Highly capitalist economies (Denmark, Singapore, United Kingdom, United States, etc.) have different levels of taxation and for different items, rules and regulations, etc.

I think the biggest failure of capitalism (if you'll allow) is that it does very bad with things that can't be or haven't been priced appropriately. We see this with pollution and the environment right now.

Re: Uncomfortable Truths in Software Engineering

#92

My Own Addition: 14. Those who code for a living make good money. I have a lot of friends who went into various fields, and it seems relative to the number of buttons we press daily, anyone who works on software makes great money. We didn't spend a ton of $ to go to medical school and 3 years of residency. We didn't go to law school and take the bar. Most of us went to 4 years, or less, of school, and here we are mak…

The difference here is usually leverage. A teacher spending an hour to teach one child teaches one child, but a programmer who spends an hour writing code to generate a dollar’s worth of value can have that run thousands of times a second or 24/7 even when they’re sleeping.

Of course teachers who understand this also make money, see Miss Excel ( https://www.instagram.com/miss.excel/?hl=en ), who was/is making $100k a day with excel instruction videos on tiktok and instagram. It’ll all about leverage.

Re: Uncomfortable Truths in Software Engineering

#93
post #3

No. 13 is gold: > We’re never going to get the broader SE culture to care about things like performance, compatibility, accessibility, security, or privacy, at least not without legal regulations that are enforced. And regulations are written in blood, so we’ll only get enforced legal regulations after a lack of accessibility kills people. Sorry, can't help but blame capitalism for saying "fuck performance, compatibi…

I'm honestly starting to feel like I transported back in time to my 1980's small town childhood, when the adults around me all blamed "Satan" for everything in the world they didn't like. "Capitalism" has about as much to do with software performance as actual devil worship had to do with my Dungeons & Dragons or heavy metal cassettes. And if your life as an engineer or user is "miserable" today, then I wish I could…

[dead]

Re: Uncomfortable Truths in Software Engineering

#94
post #3

No. 13 is gold: > We’re never going to get the broader SE culture to care about things like performance, compatibility, accessibility, security, or privacy, at least not without legal regulations that are enforced. And regulations are written in blood, so we’ll only get enforced legal regulations after a lack of accessibility kills people. Sorry, can't help but blame capitalism for saying "fuck performance, compatibi…

I'm honestly starting to feel like I transported back in time to my 1980's small town childhood, when the adults around me all blamed "Satan" for everything in the world they didn't like. "Capitalism" has about as much to do with software performance as actual devil worship had to do with my Dungeons & Dragons or heavy metal cassettes. And if your life as an engineer or user is "miserable" today, then I wish I could…

What sucks is having a supercomputer in your jeans' pocket that is significantly less responsive to your input than a Commodore 64 and is mostly used to deliver ads to you.

Re: Uncomfortable Truths in Software Engineering

#95
post #6

There’s no rigorous academic evidence for this, but a lot of companies have been backporting typescript/mypy/sorbet onto existing dynamic codebases and the case studies have been overwhelmingly positive. Not to be a buzzkill, but migration reports from any tech A to tech B are always overwhelmingly positive when the industry has a newlywed period with tech B. Save for a clear, undeniable failure the stakeholders will…

I mean, the sentence translates to "there's no evidence this is better, but some people are doing it and liking it".

This is not about being objectively better but only about preference. So that's not a "truth".

Sure people might prefer static over dynamic, but until we have hard evidence that one is actually better than the other, this is only preference which is heavily influenced by the current moment we are in.

Having said all that, I've worked with both and lean a lot more towards typed languages now (more than I did previously). But this is not an uncomfortable truth, because it's not objectively true.

Re: Uncomfortable Truths in Software Engineering

#96
post #87

My Own Addition: 14. Those who code for a living make good money. I have a lot of friends who went into various fields, and it seems relative to the number of buttons we press daily, anyone who works on software makes great money. We didn't spend a ton of $ to go to medical school and 3 years of residency. We didn't go to law school and take the bar. Most of us went to 4 years, or less, of school, and here we are mak…

You’re not wrong, but I’ll say the part about not going into it for the money is becoming less and less true all the time. For developers who are ~35 and up, almost 100% true, once you get younger than that you’ll find that there are a large and growing minority of people who are very much in it for the money alone without any particular interest or affinity for computing. Their parents, advisors, etc saw how much mo…

Perhaps this will paradoxically be a good thing. I have for a long time been wondering if or to what extent are the reports of ageism in the industry well founded.

If it turns out that hiring older developers gets you a much higher likelihood of getting someone who cares, this might change matters significantly (assuming of course that there actually is a problem in the first place).

Re: Uncomfortable Truths in Software Engineering

#97
Is mobbing really better than pairing? I've never done it. Sounds awful. I got into this game to have long stretches of solitary work, that's when I'm at my best. Not entirely obviously, I still work on a team. Anyway, pairing can work well under the right circumstances, curious to hear anyone's take on whether mobbing works or not.

Re: Uncomfortable Truths in Software Engineering

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not the fault of a system that rewards unethical behavior by having a massively skewed risk/reward profile for said behavior, it's the fault of people with low-normal levels of empathy who make rational decisions. Sure.

That same line of argument could work for socialism/communism. What country that doesn't use the free trade paradigm for their economy isn't some authoritarian nightmare of poverty and despair? Are they just bad actors using the system wrong, or is it a system that always ends that way?

If every system ends up the same way, it's probably the people not the systems.

Re: Uncomfortable Truths in Software Engineering

#99
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

great is a relative term. It's much better than feudalism, and certainly better than the most prominent socialisms that've been tried (USSR, China etc). However, it does not align incentives towards the things we think are "good", like maintaining open source software, securing software, etc - so it certainly isn't ideal.

Yea I mean nothing is perfect. While capitalism doesn’t lend well to maintaining open source software (which I find to be a surprising comment given that GitHub exists) it does lend well to things like having a house, or being able to save money for retirement, or to creating markets where you get products you want. YC for example has enabled lots of founders to create brand new companies and services we all use. So…

Wait. Are Norway and Sweden in the group of "most capitalist"? I thought they also had a bunch of socialized programs. I feel like USA and UK are the top two "most capitalist" countries.

Re: Uncomfortable Truths in Software Engineering

#100

> ...statically-typed languages are better for large projects than dynamically-typed languages... > Formal methods will never be mainstream... Say what? these two statements are written just 2 lines apart?

What’s confusing about it? In this context, “statically-typed languages” refers to things like Haskell, and “formal methods” refers to things like TLA+. The two are not at all the same, nor are they intended to be.
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