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Omicron variant more resistant to vaccine but causes less severe Covid: study

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Omicron variant more resistant to vaccine but causes less severe Covid: study

#931
post #902

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No vaccine would have been authorized on billions of people before 2020 if it had such prevalent incidence of peri- and myocarditis! But now it's authorized even of toddlers, which have even higher chance for future heart issues! And all this, because politicians didn't have the balls to keep the face mask mandates!

Birth control kills more women annually then any covid vaccine. If you engaged in non-procreative sex in the past year you've done something which has a greater risk for human life and health.

Procreative sex is deadlier, pregnancy can cause the same symptoms as taking the pill, but worse, and the act of giving birth is about 1/10000 chance of death.

Life is deadly, but both sex and covid vaccine rank low on the death list, and high on the life list.

Re: Omicron variant more resistant to vaccine but causes less severe Covid: study

#932

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Challenge trials are dangerous for the people who participate in the trials, but they aren’t any less rigorous.

I agree! But it would still be a political disaster if something does go wrong.

This isn’t about opinions!

In a normal trial, you give half of participants a vaccine, and half of participants a placebo. Then, you wait around and see how many people in each group catch COVID naturally and get sick. Your vaccine works if fewer people who received a vaccine get sick compared to the placebo.

In a challenge trial, you give half of participants a vaccine and half of participants a placebo, and then purposefully expose them all to COVID so you don’t have to wait around for them to catch the virus naturally. As before, your vaccine works if fewer people who received a vaccine get sick.

A challenge trial gives you data which is more, not less, robust, because you’re controlling for more variables between groups. And we’ve used challenge trials to test vaccines in the past—just, never with a disease that’s nearly as deadly as COVID.

Any firestorm would result from a trial participant dying from the COVID they were purposefully given (which could absolutely happen), not from the vaccine. This has nothing to do with vaccine mandates.

Re: Omicron variant more resistant to vaccine but causes less severe Covid: study

#933
post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But do they show how much mask mandates work in the real world, do they explain why Edinburgh and Glasgow are indistingishable from Mancehster and Birmingham in numbers of cases detected?

I think in reality, COVID fatigue has set in, and thats the issue.

Via what mechanism? Were people not wearing masks in Scotland despite the mandate? Were they wearing masks in England despite no mandate? Is there enough difference in behaviour between Glasgow and Manchester to explain the difference?

Re: Omicron variant more resistant to vaccine but causes less severe Covid: study

#934

Earlier quoted context omitted.

mRNA vaccines have been a thing in labs for a few decades and first human clinical trials against a pathogen in 2013 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MRNA_vaccine

> Before 2020, no mRNA technology platform (drug or vaccine) had been authorized for use in humans, so there was a risk of unknown effects.[79] The 2020 COVID-19 pandemic required faster production capability of mRNA vaccines, made them attractive to national health organisations, and led to debate about the type of initial authorization mRNA vaccines should get (including emergency use authorization or expanded acce…

This is honestly one of my concerns (double-vaccinated with mRNA, no issues and I am not anti-vax).

The thing is, before the COVID-19, the world had barely heard of mRNA vaccines and suddenly there are billions of people vaccinated across the world in 2 years. I have no intention of denying that these vaccines have saved millions, if not billions of lives by preventing hospitalization, death and further overloading of medical systems worldwide.

But still, a skeptic part of my brain can't seem to 100% accept the fact, even though it might be a medical miracle. It's that scratch on your back you can barely not reach, and it stays itchy for days and months.

On the other hand, vaccines that use inactivated or dead viruses to incite an immune response has been known for more than two centuries, whereas this feels... different.

Unfortunately, at the time of writing this, none of the other answers to this question in this thread have been proper responses that directly answer the question, except the one about "changing priorities from do no harm to optimize for least harm" that seems to make most sense.

So, I'd love to have a direct answer, no analogies, no "imagine how worse it could have been without vaccines", no "disease X kills more people than Covid and mortality for mRNA vaccine for Covid is negligible compared to that", no shifting goalposts, no guilt-tripping for being skeptic, just a straight, direct answer to this question of the OP.

Re: Omicron variant more resistant to vaccine but causes less severe Covid: study

#935

Out of curiosity, do we really require these studies? Like it is good to have more and more sources, but wouldn't the expected outcome to be the following: - vaccines that replicated the spike protein will be less effective since omicron has a modified spike protein, because the immune system only was trained to notice the spike protein and not the payload - naturally induced immunity from prior exposure to Sars-Cov-…

You are right we don't need more studies, your hunch is sufficient.

Re: Omicron variant more resistant to vaccine but causes less severe Covid: study

#936

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s not “banned” it’s just not approved yet. The US is making plans to buy tons of it in advance. Banned has a very specific connotation that is wildly out of place.

Doesn't “not approved yet” fall into the opposite trap since it has the connotation that it's somehow justified / natural? I think that it subtly masks the responsibility of our bureaucratic system. It is literally killing people by preventing them from having access to a potentially effective treatment (that would be accessible if not for this legislation / bureaucratic burden). Due to this I think that “banned for…

No, because without clear and extensive testing protocols you create opportunities for bad actors to release dangerous or ineffective drugs. Or even good actors to do so unintentionally.

The medicine is not yet sufficiently shown to be safe and effective.

Re: Omicron variant more resistant to vaccine but causes less severe Covid: study

#937
post #915
post #886

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure they are; federal, state, and private entities are absolutely running active experiments on the broad safety and efficacy of these vaccines against new variants. That makes them "experimental". We've got enough data to reasonably assert that they're safe. That doesn't mean they aren't experimental. Its like saying gravity is a theory. It sure is. That doesn't mean my phone won't break when I drop it.

sigh. In which case all medicine is experimental, because it's all being studied all the time.

There's a reason doctors call it "practicing" medicine...

(And it has nothing to do with the word practice getting a connotation of imperfect performance long after that phrase came into existence. :D )

Re: Omicron variant more resistant to vaccine but causes less severe Covid: study

#938

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t really care if you say sigmoid when you mean exponential, my point is that both of those are wrong. People shudder in fear of the phrase “exponential” but disease does not spread exponentially. It never does. That’s a laymen fairy tail and it does a great deal of harm in understanding the disease. Exponential is not well understood. People don’t know what it means, as evidenced by the fact that they consisten…

>disease does not spread exponentially. It never does. That’s a laymen fairy tail and it does a great deal of harm in understanding the disease. >Exponential is not well understood. People don’t know what it means, as evidenced by the fact that they consistently use it incorrectly. Well, in typical Dunning-Krüger fashion you're lecturing us laymen about the wrong use of "exponential", but it seems that you are the la…

A brief initial exponential phase that doesn’t explain the average state of the system is a poor mental model.

Epidemiologists do frequently use exponential growth in discussions of theoretical spreading, but they are not correct. It does not fucking matter. They’re just wrong. Is the long term spread of a disease exponential. No. We can say this with 100% confidence. Why? Because they do not increase exponentially over time. They QUICKLY hit ceilings and inflection points.

This is the problem. If you call a system exponential because it looks like that at the beginning, your estimates of the middle and end will be hugely off. Massively wrong.

It is obviously apparent looking at Covid that it does not spread exponentially. The impact of this understanding is enormous. In an exponential model, a virus that is twice as infectious could be expected to infect 4x as many people over the same period. If the model is logarithmic, twice as infectious will likely result in LESS THAN TWICE the number of people infected.

Scary predictions that a small increase in spreading will exponentially increase the number of infected people do not hold up against observed real world data. We should be cheering on a more spreadable but less deadly disease. Scale matters, of course, but we aren’t seeing anything like that.

If you want to come back to this in one year and check to see if omicron infected even twice the number of people that delta did over the same time period that’s a bet I’d surely take.

Re: Omicron variant more resistant to vaccine but causes less severe Covid: study

#939

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really need to check the safety on your gun if you expect that it’s on?

Going to definitely need you to explain that analogy though

Relying on a safety critical assumption to be true without checking it isn’t a good idea even if it’s probably true.

Re: Omicron variant more resistant to vaccine but causes less severe Covid: study

#940

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it’s not. Contagion spread is logarithmic, and has obvious upper bounds. E.g. about a third of the us has gotten Covid. 5x contagious does not give you 166% of the population infected. Nor does it give you 100%. Probably not even 90%. I would bet no more than 50% over the next year. Half as deadly on the other hand is a big deal. It’s not just deaths, it’s also hospitalizations. If you imagine the bell curve of ou…

It sounds like you don't know the first thing about epidemiology modelling : https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6962332/

Read your own damn paper. The exponential phase of a disease spread is at the very beginning when the total number of cases is small. The rate rapidly decays to a point of being mostly linear and continuing to drop off.

People think exponential is an accelerating rocket ship to 100% infected. It is not. It’s a decelerating trend likely to stall out well below 100%.

If the R factor increases from 1 to 2, over a LONG period, you would be wrong to expect exponentially more cases. You would probably see fewer than 2x the cases. You would see it expand much, much faster initially.

But both would see slow downs at similar inflection points.

The very first sentence of your own linked abstract:

> The INITIAL exponential growth rate of an epidemic is an important measure of the severeness of the epidemic, and is also closely related to the basic reproduction number. Estimating the growth rate from the epidemic curve can be a challenge, because of its DECAYS with time.

the long term model is not exponential. This really should be obvious, but you cannot create an accurate disease model that does not show the impact of population size. Pure exponential models are only relevant on a theoretical infinitely large population that is well and randomly mixed. When you establish that there’s only so many people, the growth rate has to decline, and not at 100% of the population. It stalls out well before that. Look into random graph models.

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