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Bird populations declining fast across North America

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Re: Bird populations declining fast across North America

#301

Post by lambdadmitry »

nitrogen wrote: post #84

I've noticed an even more disturbing trend of learned helplessness and misanthropic Malthusianism in these threads over the years. Not a single comment, at time of writing, has had a positive tone, and there are very few actionable suggestions. No consideration is given to the many positives in modern life, nor to realistic, productive tradeoffs. Everyone wants to wail in dismay at the perceived impending doom and do…

I agree, and chimed in with a few comments to a similar effect.

What's especially frustrating is how shortsighted the Malthusian "degrowth" response is. It honestly feels like people don't realise that "the West" is just one billion people out of eight and its carbon impact is shrinking both in relative and absolute numbers. Therefore any measure that might work have to be acceptable to the developing world. In fact, I'd say we need to introduce the MAP test: can you convince Modi, Assad, and Putin to implement your proposed measure? If you can't, bin it, we don't have time for it.

The only general approach I can see working under that test is tech. We "just" need to make low carbon options more economically attractive, and then it'll happen automatically. No amount of Western self-sacrifice in the name of degrowth, no amount of high minded rhetoric about "overconsumption" will do that. US becoming an eco fascist state and going to net zero overnight will barely move the needle.

But it's so easy to forget about that in the tiny bubble of Western eco activists.

Re: Bird populations declining fast across North America

#302

Post by jwmhjwmh »

pdonis wrote: post #286
jwmhjwmh wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> central planning does not fix those deficiencies, it makes them worse How would the system I'm describing make inequality and the resulting conflict worse? > you have to count the communication between the nodes as part of the computation. But surely the nodes themselves must be the ones to perform the physical computation in the end? If the computing power of distributed systems scales exponentially with the numbe…

> How would the system I'm describing make inequality and the resulting conflict worse? Because your system has to be implemented with humans, and humans cannot be trusted with the power to tell other humans what to do. Your system requires that in order to work. (Existing governments also require this in order to work, which is why they're dysfunctional, but your system requires it much more.) A free market does not…

Very well. Let me just say that any large company involves humans telling other humans what to do, even if the workers work there "voluntarily". Many people have no choice but to work for such companies.

Re: Bird populations declining fast across North America

#303

Post by AussieWog93 »

jwmhjwmh wrote: post #288
AussieWog93 wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Such an economy could avoid the instability of our current economy with its cyclical booms and busts. From what I understand (not an economist, but quoting what I've heard from them), much of the boom-bust cycle can be dampened by limiting debt.

I'm not an economist either. It just seems the business cycle has been a persistent feature of capitalist economies.

Perhaps look into Australia. We have much tighter regulations than the US or UK when it comes to lending, and we've largely avoided recessions, including in 2008.

COVID got us, but that did have a physical reason behind it.

Re: Bird populations declining fast across North America

#304

Post by moosey »

AussieWog93 wrote: post #251
moosey wrote: post #5

Until human society stops serving abstractions (like money) over things that are real, then real things will continually face consequence. These will still over into our lives in a multitude of ways until we no longer have real systems to support these abstractions. Loss of natural life is such a failure. Today we speak of stock markets, governments, businesses. Someday, our main concern will not be these shared drea…

There have been massive ecological disasters in command economies too, the most famous being the locust plagues that resulted from Mao's Four Pests Campaign. Hell, before civilisation even existed you had humans wiping out megafauna right across the world. Regardless of what economic system we have, a technologically advanced culture that values hamburgers and Doritos over biodiversity will trample on nature to get w…

A "command economy", or even "China", are still abstractions. Arguably, your points further prove mine.

Re: Bird populations declining fast across North America

#305

Post by carbonguy »

throwawaylinux wrote: post #238
carbonguy wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is probably that, if you believe the biosphere is in crisis NOW, then waiting hundreds of years for human populations to decline is not a solution. There's an odd disconnect in the comments you've been making where you identify this problem of overpopulation, but seem extremely reticent to describe what you think should be done about this problem you've identified. Maybe I've missed it, and I plan to contin…

> The point is probably that, if you believe the biosphere is in crisis NOW, then waiting hundreds of years for human populations to decline is not a solution. I didn't say that waiting for western countries to decline to 5% of their populations was solution. Hope that cleared things up for you. > There's an odd disconnect in the comments you've been making where you identify this problem of overpopulation, but seem…

> I didn't say that waiting for western countries to decline to 5% of their populations was solution.

I suppose not, though what you say later in this comment is remarkably close:

> Most of the highest consuming countries have naturally declining populations, so one thing would be to leave those alone rather than institute growth policies.

Moving on:

> What's really odd is that you think an observation is verboten if it does not come with any solutions!

Well, all right, you kinda got me there - I do, in fact, believe that observing a problem without suggesting solutions is not particularly helpful in most cases. "Verboten" is too strong a word, though - one should be as free to make pointless remarks as productive ones in a public forum such as this.

And, for what it's worth, I didn't intend my question as a "gotcha" - I appreciate that you actually answered it. Broadly, I agree with you: taking advantage of demographic transition through eg. better education seems like a good tactic, as does avoiding policies that tend to boost consumption.

Unfortunately, since anti-growth policies are antithetical to our current economic order (again, broadly speaking) I'm stuck on what combination of influences would actually synergize to make these changes possible and/or more rapid. Fortunately, I suspect at least one important transition is happening now, in the minds of the people of the world (the wealthy nations particularly) deciding they do not need as much as they are used to having access to.

To be as transparent as possible about why I care about this matter, the perspective on the destruction of the biosphere that I've internalized is that it has gone so far that mass human casualties are likely in my lifetime, and moreover that this will be how I personally die - either directly via environmental effects (heatstroke? fire? flood? famine?) or from the social breakdowns that will multiply as the foundation of our society crumbles away. I consider this outcome existentially bad and want to avoid it, to say the least.

Given this, I very urgently desire solutions that DON'T take 500 years to work, because if those are all we can come up with, then we might as well not bother: this civilization of ours is doomed sooner rather than later.

Re: Bird populations declining fast across North America

#307

Post by AussieWog93 »

moosey wrote: post #304
AussieWog93 wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There have been massive ecological disasters in command economies too, the most famous being the locust plagues that resulted from Mao's Four Pests Campaign. Hell, before civilisation even existed you had humans wiping out megafauna right across the world. Regardless of what economic system we have, a technologically advanced culture that values hamburgers and Doritos over biodiversity will trample on nature to get w…

A "command economy", or even "China", are still abstractions. Arguably, your points further prove mine.

Really?

The whole point of a command economy is to have a central planning authority that oversees production of x tons of potatoes, y tons of steel and z T-34 tanks. They explicitly ignore abstract financial metrics like GDP and stock prices. They still ruined the environment.

Unless you're arguing that the mere existence of abstract concepts somehow degrades the environment, I don't see how this proves your point.

Re: Bird populations declining fast across North America

#308

Post by Spooky23 »

jollybean wrote: post #177
Spooky23 wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our local Nextdoor exploded when some particularly nutty cat vigilante started stealing cats and spaying them. I think as society sprawls out and folks have fewer kids, this stuff gets escalated.

These comments are disturbingly out of touch. 'Neuter and Release' programs are common, supported and sanctioned by animal shelters, usually local vets provide their services for free, and the point is to provide basic medical for the animals while at the same time trying to control excess populations. Calling them 'Nutty cat lady vigilantes' would be like calling people 100 years ago providing shelter for abused wom…

This particular group of self-described activists were running a squeegee guy scam with cats.

They were stealing pets and shaking down the owners for cash.

Re: Bird populations declining fast across North America

#309

Post by Spooky23 »

jollybean wrote: post #285
thatguy0900 wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mostly harmless to you... What a strange thing to call what is effectively an apex suburban predator that is known to kill for fun with no intention of eating.

They are animals like any other, and this notion of 'apex suburban predator' is nonsense.

No way. Cats eviscerate bird population.

Re: Bird populations declining fast across North America

#310

Post by LudwigNagasena »

Retric wrote: post #274
LudwigNagasena wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What economists are on the side that GDP is a perfect measure that precisely captures the increase in well-being? I have never heard of one. If you look at the IMF website you will find a nuanced explanation of what GDP is and is not. For example, it states that > It is also important to understand what GDP cannot tell us. GDP is not a measure of the overall standard of living or well-being of a country. Although cha…

Again your taking things to unreasonable extremes, plenty of economists think GDP is good enough to be useful. Which means it’s informing their decisions or it wouldn’t be useful. You can’t say measure X is useful, and it’s flaws are well known therefore it’s flaws are irrelevant. If it’s useful then it’s flaws are part of any decision made using it.

>plenty of economists think GDP is good enough to be useful. Which means it’s informing their decisions or it wouldn’t be useful

Yeah, that's precisely my point. It's informing their decisions.

>You can’t say measure X is useful, and it’s flaws are well known therefore it’s flaws are irrelevant. If it’s useful then it’s flaws are part of any decision made using it.

Measure X is useful, its flaws are well known therefore people who use it account for its flaws during the decision making process.

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