Amazon’s Kindle Tablet Is Very Real. I’ve Seen It, Played With It. • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon’s Kindle Tablet Is Very Real. I’ve Seen It, Played With It.

#51

Post by 9999 » Fri, Sep 02, 2011, 9:45 PM UTC

joebadmo wrote: post #35

beaumartinez wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> our tools for consumption are advancing at a significantly greater rate than our tools for production Our tools for production have advanced as far as they can—what major changes have the desktop and laptop PC had over the last five years?

That's part of my point. The R&D is going into optimizing consumption instead of enabling production. I think there's still room for making it easier for people to produce expressive content. I don't think I'm necessarily imaginative enough to think of many, or the best, but I've started to try.[0] I think some people, particularly those working on Web stuff, are also trying. But I think web software is only one vect…

In terms of desktop publishing you might be right, but I think we've seen amazing strides in the realms of audio and video production in the past ten years. It's now possible to buy cameras and audio recording gear for pennies on the dollar of what you used to pay for tools with similar capabilities. Meanwhile the software side of things has advanced just as rapidly... For example, I had to do some noise reduction on some audio recordings a couple of weeks ago and what used to take hours to do in early iterations of Protools now only takes a few clicks in Adobe's Audition (and probably in the latest version of protools too...). Photoshop, Illustrator, Flash... All of these tools have advanced considerably in the last few years, much less the last decade.

Tablets have any number of interesting productivity software being developed for them (innovative word processors spring immediately to mind), but developers are severely limited by the hardware capabilities of those platforms... Obviously we won't see a full fledged version of Photoshop or Final Cut written for a tablet for many years to come, but I think we might see that eventually.

Re: Amazon’s Kindle Tablet Is Very Real. I’ve Seen It, Played With It.

#52

Post by joebadmo » Fri, Sep 02, 2011, 9:45 PM UTC

ugh wrote: post #36

joebadmo wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You just listed four activites that are consumptive in nature. What was the last thing you produced on your iPad? Not just that, but even the way you use it is not the optimized-for case, I think. Apple wants to optimize you buying music, movies, books, etc. through iTunes and iBooks. Amazon is continuing this trend. Yes, the post-PC devices will continue to allow you to participate in the Web, necessarily, but they…

Yes, I do that stuff. I have always done it. I now do it on a more appropriate device. It’s consumption and it’s fun. Not something to scoff at. (Mine was more a response to the central authority bullshit which is obvious nonsense.) It doesn’t matter what I did or did not produce with the iPad. Computers are cheap, software is cheap, creation was never as easy as it is today. We are living in a golden age of content…

Creation is much easier today, it's true. And for a while, it looked like the old model of a few rich broadcasting/production companies making things for the rest of us to sit at home and passivel consume was going away, replaced by a model where we all have the means to produce better and better stuff, where merit, originality, expressiveness, communication were rewarded more than the means to invest the necessary capital. It looked like livejournal, flickr, deviantart - the blogging revolution - was empowering a generation to turn off the television and engage in an active, participatory way in a global conversation.

Not that passive consumption is inherently evil. I just was imagining a world where the power of creation is more evenly distributed. I'm a little sad to see that trend start to reverse.

I agree that creation isn't for everyone. But the available tools have an effect. They encourage or discourage in subtle ways. The iPad's software keyboard imposes just a slight amount of friction on inputting text. That has an effect. It matters, to some however small degree, and it aggregates with every other way that Apple optimizes consumption over production.

On centralized authority: again, the way you are consuming content is not the case Apple is optimizing for. They have allowed it, but their most sanctioned way is for you to buy content from their partners through their distribution channels. It's not a complete restriction, but an optimization of a certain model through UI. TFA's description of the new Kindle seems to follow, and, indeed, to go farther down this path.

Meta: Not that I'm particularly offended, but why take such an abrasive tone? "Central authority bullshit," "obvious nonsense"? Do you simply not consider it a possibility that you didn't fully understand what I was trying to say, either because I communicated it poorly or because it doesn't align with your preconceived notions? I'm actually quite happy to be having this discussion, as it's one I've tried to have many times, but never got much uptake. But, why start with such a dismissive tone? I've seen so many threads start with mild, mutual abrasiveness and spiral quickly into full-out flamewar. Why take a step down that path? Is it so hard to be overtly civil? Honest question.

Re: Amazon’s Kindle Tablet Is Very Real. I’ve Seen It, Played With It.

#53

Post by Hawramani » Fri, Sep 02, 2011, 9:47 PM UTC

joebadmo wrote: post #29

chc wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you explain how a tablet-form Kindle is more centralized and passive than one with physical keys? I don't follow.

Not more than the old kindle, but more than the old model of computing, PCs with dedicated input.

To me things haven't really changed. The non-techy users never made good use of the freedoms of the PC-era, so to them their environment was just as restricted as the Kindle or iPad environment.

As for the geeks, things haven't changed either. We find ways to open up the devices and get the freedoms we want.

Re: Amazon’s Kindle Tablet Is Very Real. I’ve Seen It, Played With It.

#54

Post by officemonkey » Fri, Sep 02, 2011, 9:49 PM UTC

rryan wrote: post #31

Lewisham wrote: post #3

If Amazon are going to maintain an Android fork, I wonder how well Android apps will be able to play with it. It would be a huge disappointment if 2.2+ apps were unavailable (or installing Google Market for that matter). I can see why Amazon has gone down this path, but I do wonder if it's the right thing, rather than doing everyone's favorite/most hated carrier-specific bolt-ons instead. I also hope that Amazon does…

This seems like a misstep to me that will ultimately hurt users and developers. If any API incompatibilities emerge (beyond the normal API level that Android uses to distinguish between release APIs) then developers will be forced to fork their own products and maintain 2 separate release channels -- one for the Android market and one for the Kindle market. Beyond that, Android will continue to fly ahead with each re…

You're seeing this as a crippled android tablet. It's not. It's a kindle.

There's a big market out there for people who just want to read a book. They don't want to GPS with Google Maps, they don't want to install Yelp, or Trulia, or GrubHub apps. They just want to read, listen to music, and watch a video when they're on the bus or on the couch.

Amazon has done well by providing focus to the Kindle. Where I commute it's more popular than the iPad. They may someday decide to take Apple head-on with an Android tablet, but it's not gonna be this year.

Re: Amazon’s Kindle Tablet Is Very Real. I’ve Seen It, Played With It.

#55

Post by wvenable » Fri, Sep 02, 2011, 9:53 PM UTC

superuser2 wrote: post #40

E-ink made the Kindle. Tablets are exciting, but reading a novel on a backlit screen is no fun, and if it were, we'd read on our cell phones, because they're easier to carry around. This is disappointing. The Kindle 2 (the model I had) did one thing, and one thing phenomenally well. I don't want my kindle to be a Swiss army knife.

Amazon is more than just books or at least they want to be. E-ink is great for books. But if you want to sell music, movies, and games then you need something like this.

Re: Amazon’s Kindle Tablet Is Very Real. I’ve Seen It, Played With It.

#56

Post by varunsrin » Fri, Sep 02, 2011, 9:53 PM UTC

ugh wrote: post #43

peterbraden wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your reply exemplifies his argument - you used an ipod to 'consume' media for si hours, rather than creating, which older computers may have been better suited for.

Wha? If I want to create I can. It’s never been as easy as today. You are creating a false dichotomy. The content I was consuming on my iPad – and that was my point – did not come from a central authority (no more than before when I consumed on my Laptop) and it’s enabled by the cheap tools available for content creation today. I was listening to one awesome podcast by a guy who made podcasting his job and survives (…

Was the podcast created by a guy on a iPad?

How about the webcomic, do you think it was done in the iPad / Android version photoshop?

Was the HP fan fiction typed on a tablet keyboard?

The point the OP is trying to make is not that tablets discourage production of content at a higher level. It's that companies are spending a lot of money improving consumption device /software , instead of creative devices/software

It's that there is more money is creating consumption devices, and most of the R&D is going into creating better and better consumption devices, with less focus on creation better tools for production.

This is however a natural state of the free market - creating consumer-oriented consumption devices is suddenly a lot more profitable than creating devices targeted and production of content, and therefore that is where we are seeing the most innovation/investment right now.

Re: Amazon’s Kindle Tablet Is Very Real. I’ve Seen It, Played With It.

#57

Post by joebadmo » Fri, Sep 02, 2011, 9:54 PM UTC

9999 wrote: post #51

joebadmo wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's part of my point. The R&D is going into optimizing consumption instead of enabling production. I think there's still room for making it easier for people to produce expressive content. I don't think I'm necessarily imaginative enough to think of many, or the best, but I've started to try.[0] I think some people, particularly those working on Web stuff, are also trying. But I think web software is only one vect…

In terms of desktop publishing you might be right, but I think we've seen amazing strides in the realms of audio and video production in the past ten years. It's now possible to buy cameras and audio recording gear for pennies on the dollar of what you used to pay for tools with similar capabilities. Meanwhile the software side of things has advanced just as rapidly... For example, I had to do some noise reduction on…

I imagine developers will produce interesting productivity software for these platforms, but I think the form factor inherently privileges consumption. There are the ergonomics, for example. Also limited screen size, and necessarily limited input. Maybe my overall point, though, is that with development going into optimizing consumption, less goes to figuring out more robust ways to interact with a more powerful platform. I feel like the desktop GUI has stagnated over the last couple of decades, and now there's less hope than ever that there's going to be any significant innovation in this vector.

Re: Amazon’s Kindle Tablet Is Very Real. I’ve Seen It, Played With It.

#58

Post by joebadmo » Fri, Sep 02, 2011, 9:57 PM UTC

Hawramani wrote: post #53

joebadmo wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not more than the old kindle, but more than the old model of computing, PCs with dedicated input.

To me things haven't really changed. The non-techy users never made good use of the freedoms of the PC-era, so to them their environment was just as restricted as the Kindle or iPad environment. As for the geeks, things haven't changed either. We find ways to open up the devices and get the freedoms we want.

I agree with you on the extreme ends of the spectrum. But there are plenty of people in the middle who can be encouraged in either direction by the way we construct our tools. I think the explosion of content on the web, or Web 2.0, is all the evidence you need.

Re: Amazon’s Kindle Tablet Is Very Real. I’ve Seen It, Played With It.

#59

Post by jccodez » Fri, Sep 02, 2011, 10:00 PM UTC

sodiumjoe wrote: post #2

In certain ways, this "post-PC" era that Apple's brought us into with the iPad seems like a step backward. We're going back to something more like the broadcast television model, where a more or less centralized authority produces the content for passive users to consume. These tablets just keep getting more and more optimized for that. I suppose it's somewhat natural, given the way the market works, but it seems our…

This whole thread is a great discussion. Commenting so I can come back and read the replies. I agree with many points regarding content creation vs. content consumption and the lines drawn between the two. I do believe the tablet is a great consumption device and that is a major function in the consumer market as well as business (even more so for business based on my experience with my software)

Re: Amazon’s Kindle Tablet Is Very Real. I’ve Seen It, Played With It.

#60

Post by ugh » Fri, Sep 02, 2011, 10:01 PM UTC

joebadmo wrote: post #52

ugh wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I do that stuff. I have always done it. I now do it on a more appropriate device. It’s consumption and it’s fun. Not something to scoff at. (Mine was more a response to the central authority bullshit which is obvious nonsense.) It doesn’t matter what I did or did not produce with the iPad. Computers are cheap, software is cheap, creation was never as easy as it is today. We are living in a golden age of content…

Creation is much easier today, it's true. And for a while, it looked like the old model of a few rich broadcasting/production companies making things for the rest of us to sit at home and passivel consume was going away, replaced by a model where we all have the means to produce better and better stuff, where merit, originality, expressiveness, communication were rewarded more than the means to invest the necessary c…

The iPad and other tablets are not great tools for writing. Emails or comments on HN (another one of those things that wasn’t possible for very many people one or two decades ago) work great, longer or more complicated stuff quite often not. There are, however, quite a few use cases where tablets are better tools for content creation than, say, a PC or at least could become better tools given time and software.

But I feel you are ignoring the larger picture. Tablets are currently third devices and prices have developed in such a way to actually allow for a third device. What’s wrong with a consumption oriented device when what most people were already doing was consuming?

Given that creation is as simple as it never before has been and that all the tablets actually can receive all of the created content I just do not understand how tablets could threaten content creation in any way whatsoever. It seems absurd to me.

Tablets are freaking awesome for content consumption of any kind and they can do quite a few other things. They are also cheap enough to make it possible to also buy a very capable PC. I … I really don’t understand how that could have any negative impact.

(Meta: I actually feel very bad about my tone now. I sometimes start to furiously write stuff like that and I always regret it but hardly ever learn. I’m very sorry for my tone. It was a mistake.)