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Ask HN: How do I create a social movement to change the world?

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Re: Ask HN: How do I create a social movement to change the world?

#81

Post by 0xbadc0de5 »

SequoiaHope wrote: post #80
0xbadc0de5 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trust in good intentions is a huge red flag any time communism is being discussed. I'd like to believe that you are approaching this from good intentions and that you honestly can't see the horrific results that your proposed political/economic system would bring about - but there are just so many corpses tied to attempts to implement communism that anyone proposing it in serious conversation either does not fully un…

> No gulags or prisons? But where do you put the people who oppose the ideas you are proposing? The same place the creators of Wikipedia put people who don’t like Wikipedia - nowhere, they don’t do anything to people who don’t want to participate. > But what about those who don't want to be convinced? Or the people who just don't like being told what to do? How will you incentivize them? My system is purely voluntary…

What are your thoughts on how Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot conducted themselves? They also believed that they were doing the best possible good for their societies.

I believe the disconnect here is you seem to be suggesting that Marxist / communist ideology can be safely restrained from eroding personal liberty. I do not and would rather not run the experiment because history has shown it tends toward genocide - regardless of the good intentions of its supporters. It's the parable of the scorpion and the frog.

I'm happy to encourage people to continue to help the needy. But communism is a hard nope.

Re: Ask HN: How do I create a social movement to change the world?

#82

Post by SequoiaHope »

0xbadc0de5 wrote: post #81
SequoiaHope wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No gulags or prisons? But where do you put the people who oppose the ideas you are proposing? The same place the creators of Wikipedia put people who don’t like Wikipedia - nowhere, they don’t do anything to people who don’t want to participate. > But what about those who don't want to be convinced? Or the people who just don't like being told what to do? How will you incentivize them? My system is purely voluntary…

What are your thoughts on how Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot conducted themselves? They also believed that they were doing the best possible good for their societies. I believe the disconnect here is you seem to be suggesting that Marxist / communist ideology can be safely restrained from eroding personal liberty. I do not and would rather not run the experiment because history has shown it tends toward genocide - regardles…

How can you account for the millions of Americans who have died over the past 50 years due to lack of medical care? How about the millions of Vietnamese people killed in their own country fighting for independence from colonial rule? How about all those innocent people killed by the USA in the Middle East?

The problem with all that and the people you mentioned is authoritarianism, not their preferred way of organizing production.

In the USA post-McCarthy “communism” was understood as synonymous with authoritarian communism. But authoritarian communism does not and has never represented the whole of communist thought. There have always been libertarian communists also called anarchist communists, as Peter Kropotkin identified himself in his famous 1892 book.

If you think all communism leads to authoritarianism then of course you would oppose it. But isn’t is the case that capitalism is just as susceptible to authoritarian control, as we see when the USA overthrows governments to secure cheap oil and a pliable labor force?

We can an must oppose authoritarianism in all its forms.

But you’re getting hung up on terms. I’m sure if I told you I want to marshall resources from donors to build a facility that makes automated meals for everyone, you’d be supportive. It is only when I say that every person deserves this regardless of their ability or desire to work that you will get concerned.

In the words of Hélder Câmara: “When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist.”

Re: Ask HN: How do I create a social movement to change the world?

#83

Post by akomtu »

SequoiaHope wrote: post #75
akomtu wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regarding your "reasonable idea", does it account for real life constraints, namely greed, cruelty and other qualities found in humans today? Capitalism isn't great, but it works, while other models tend to fold under the weight of reality.

Yes. Meanwhile, I hear that "capitalism works" but we have tens of thousands of Americans dying each year due to lack of basic medical care, our students are saddled with educational debt that the boomer generation did not have to pay, people cannot survive working full time on minimum wage, and our politicians are pocketing huge financial gain to avoid a rapid conversion to renewable energy or affordable health care…

All this are comical problems compared to what we'd had in a marxist regime. Instead of tens of thousands dying from lack of medical care, there would be tens of millions dead due to ideological cleanings (e.g. uygurs in china), and there won't be much of healthcare anyway because doctors don't like to work for free. This brings us to the education. In marxist regimes students are simply sent to work for a few years in places where the party needs them. No debts, but no freedom. The equivalent of the minimum wage problem in marxism is empty shelves: your salary buys a lot of stuff, on paper, but there's simply no goods to buy due to price control.

So far your arguments are just a wishlist: you say what you want, but don't explain how to get it.

Re: Ask HN: How do I create a social movement to change the world?

#84

Post by SequoiaHope »

akomtu wrote: post #83
SequoiaHope wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Meanwhile, I hear that "capitalism works" but we have tens of thousands of Americans dying each year due to lack of basic medical care, our students are saddled with educational debt that the boomer generation did not have to pay, people cannot survive working full time on minimum wage, and our politicians are pocketing huge financial gain to avoid a rapid conversion to renewable energy or affordable health care…

All this are comical problems compared to what we'd had in a marxist regime. Instead of tens of thousands dying from lack of medical care, there would be tens of millions dead due to ideological cleanings (e.g. uygurs in china), and there won't be much of healthcare anyway because doctors don't like to work for free. This brings us to the education. In marxist regimes students are simply sent to work for a few years…

I suppose you don’t know anything about the doctors in Cuba then.

> So far your arguments are just a wishlist: you say what you want, but don't explain how to get it.

Actually I often explain how I’m going to help create a system that can free people from the need to work. The fact that I’ve not explained it to you so far in this conversation is not evidence that I don’t have a plan.

I am a skilled robotics engineer and I will work with others to create productive machinery which lowers the cost of living until those benefitting from this system do not even need to work to get what they need.

What you do not realize is that the Marxist critique of the way capitalism organizes production can be applied to engineered systems without any use of force or state power. I will simply collaborate with others to build machines we own which provide for us. In this way we will create community ownership of the means of production in a voluntary system that works without any laws in the USA changing. This is a plan informed by Marx’s critique of capitalist production, and also informed by the failure of authoritarian communism.

Re: Ask HN: How do I create a social movement to change the world?

#85

Post by davidjytang »

carbonatedmilk wrote: post #61

Hi Andrew, A bit different from usual HN fare, but here's a quick nerdy breakdown of how to build power / advocate / get laws changed. You have an audacious, but specific goal. That's great! You have at least one person who cares about the outcome of your campaign (you). That's good, you'll need more 1. You need a power map. https://commonslibrary.org/power-mapping/ is a good resource to get you started. Get together…

This is so interesting and seems applicable in many scenarios. Thank you for writing this.

Re: Ask HN: How do I create a social movement to change the world?

#86

Post by sifar »

dredmorbius wrote: post #79
sifar wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you hit a mountain that you cannot climb or tunnel through, you simply go around it - you don't try to move it or worse start a movement to move it. It is not about surrendering or giving up. There is difference between when you have to stand up for something, when you find yourself in a situation where you have to go beyond yourself and where you "want" to be a hero. This myth of the hero needs to die. Think abou…

Your allegory of the mountain is precisely what I'm getting at. Attempting the physically or logically impossible, or the effectively counterproductive. The point is to identify a problem, an achievable preferred state , and to work toward that. Note that even towering mountains, given time, technique, or resources, can be overpassed, leapt over, or tunneled through. And that there are projects which take generations…

>> And again: declaring defeat in advance, or throwing up ones hands and declaring that "all is foreordained" won't get you there.

I am not sure why what I said comes across as defeatist :).

>> I'd argue that part of the genius and heroism comes from recognising such loci, recognising the societal magnitude of the task, and searching for a solution space

I agree. Thank you for the thoughtful responses and the references.

Re: Ask HN: How do I create a social movement to change the world?

#87

Post by dredmorbius »

sifar wrote: post #86
dredmorbius wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your allegory of the mountain is precisely what I'm getting at. Attempting the physically or logically impossible, or the effectively counterproductive. The point is to identify a problem, an achievable preferred state , and to work toward that. Note that even towering mountains, given time, technique, or resources, can be overpassed, leapt over, or tunneled through. And that there are projects which take generations…

>> And again: declaring defeat in advance, or throwing up ones hands and declaring that "all is foreordained" won't get you there. I am not sure why what I said comes across as defeatist :). >> I'd argue that part of the genius and heroism comes from recognising such loci, recognising the societal magnitude of the task, and searching for a solution space I agree. Thank you for the thoughtful responses and the referen…

I read the Salantar quote as ... largely defeatist, despite the twist at the end.

There are people who've left their mark who haven't followed that specific track, and the implied suggestion that it is the only and/or best method ... wants for evidence.

If you consider that you are one of the tools that you're applying to change, then it makes sense to keep that tool functional. Look out for yourself, first, that you may aid others and larger efforts.

A useful example to me comes from the field of ag engineering, and a story I was told at Uni. The practice often makes use of minimal capital and equipment to accomplish major changes. One example is riverbed engineering.

One approach is the US Army Corps method of bulldozers, earth-moving equipment, dredges, concrete, and explosives.

The preferred method of the ag engineer in remote and low-income regions is the gabbion --- a cage made of wire holding stones. Placed in the streamflow, these use the power of the water itself to reshape the streambed in the desired manner --- directing water to or away from a bank, speeding or slowing flow, enhancing or slowing erosion. It's an application of an intervention to maximum effect with minimum effort.

(That's not to say there aren't problems which bulldozers, diesel, dynamite, and portland cement can't solve far more quickly. But where you're bootstrapping from a minimal position, the gabbion method has merits.)

And that's the essence of what I'm suggesting. Study the problem area, see where behaviour is most strongly influenced, and modify that point. Let the energies within the system do the rest. Judo and ju-jitsu work similarly. I've heard RMS's creation of the GNU GPL described as an example of "ju-jitsu law" --- it takes copyright and uses precisely the law's own strengths to work against it. A certain amount of change was accomplished.

Another great concept comes from the field of navigation by Charles H. Cotter: "The Art of ship handling involves the effective use of forces under control to overcome the effect of forces not under control."

Ship's captains don't recede within themselves to control their ships. They master the craft, learn the practice, read conditions, and act to maximum benefit. There's the natural "ship of state" metaphor, and ... it's not entirely applicable (countries are far more complex than ships, and tend not to have a unitary chain of authority). But the notion of working on the possible remains.

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