Ghost riders: the invisible lives of Johannesburg food couriers • Hacker News Board

Re: Ghost riders: the invisible lives of Johannesburg food couriers

#21

Post by zohch » Tue, Dec 14, 2021, 12:46 PM UTC

smokey_circles wrote: post #20

zohch wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The western world has stolen enough wealth from us. South Africa has taken all the rope it had and hung itself with it. Sure the west stole enough from South Africa, but South Africans stole more from other South Africans than the west ever stole from South Africa, and they continue to steal from other South Africans, and will continue doing so. South Africa's biggest roadblock to prosperity is not the west, it is…

So we're clear, I'm not proposing the west do any kind of reparations. You just won't calculate it and the damage is already done, a pay cheque isn't going to help. But you are wrong. I'd prefer it if they just left, take their corporations with them. They don't have to return anything, just go. Firstly, I am referring to the whole continent. The west didn't just destroy one nation, they took us all out (except Botsw…

> > South Africa's biggest roadblock to prosperity is not the west

> The west excludes us from global economic activity all the goddamned time.

And yet you fail to cite one example of this. I don't see how this is true, but by all means, maybe try again and cite an actual example. And just for clarity, an example of restricting travel in a god damned pandemic is not an example of "systemic economic exclusion", it may be an ill conceived policy choice, but the west is also not responsible for your pathetically low vaccination rate which likely helped the new variant come into existence.

> And hey, look at that, Shell is busy sonar blasting our coastline for fucking oil. Great. You think we're gonna see any of that money? Not a chance.

Definitely the voters who vote for the politicians who license and allow this have nothing to do with this, right?

> It's also worth noting I'm a white south africa.

Nope, not worth noting.

Re: Ghost riders: the invisible lives of Johannesburg food couriers

#22

Post by lelanthran » Tue, Dec 14, 2021, 12:53 PM UTC

smokey_circles wrote: post #20

zohch wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The western world has stolen enough wealth from us. South Africa has taken all the rope it had and hung itself with it. Sure the west stole enough from South Africa, but South Africans stole more from other South Africans than the west ever stole from South Africa, and they continue to steal from other South Africans, and will continue doing so. South Africa's biggest roadblock to prosperity is not the west, it is…

So we're clear, I'm not proposing the west do any kind of reparations. You just won't calculate it and the damage is already done, a pay cheque isn't going to help. But you are wrong. I'd prefer it if they just left, take their corporations with them. They don't have to return anything, just go. Firstly, I am referring to the whole continent. The west didn't just destroy one nation, they took us all out (except Botsw…

A lot of your argument relies on the assertion that the West took resources from Africa.

And yes, while that is true to some extent, it is not the whole story.

> America's wealth was greatly enhanced by the railways built by the slaves they stole.

IIRC (and wikipedia agrees: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_slave_trade) the slaves were bought by the west. The theft was done by native Africans for the most part.

Africans enslaved other Africans and then sold them.

Should the west have refused to buy those slaves from Africans? Certainly, but it was not the West that, for the most part, enslaved and then sold the African slaves.

> And hey, look at that, Shell is busy sonar blasting our coastline for fucking oil. Great. You think we're gonna see any of that money? Not a chance. Nevermind the destruction they're causing, at least the westerners can drive their cars around. But hey, we should just pull ourselves up by our bootstraps, right?

Who'd you vote for?

Because I can all but guarantee that the Shell paid money for whatever they are doing, and if you are not seeing any of that money, it is going to the leaders who sold Shell those rights.

So yeah, "The West" is buying resources at fire-sale prices from Africa, but they they're paying your leaders, and if you don't see a cent of that money, it is not the West's fault.

If your are unhappy that the resources are being mined relentlessly and you are getting nothing in return, then ask yourself where that money is going. If you think the land is being destroyed, ask yourself why you voted in leaders who took the money in exchange for destroying the land.

> But the west has 0 understanding of what they did here, they elected to whitewash history instead. Plenty of scars to disprove the narratives.

I'm South African, always have been. We have plenty of scars, but a significant number of them are self-inflicted. We vote along tribal lines (white man bad, black man good) and are then surprised when we don't see a cent of all the money going to our politicians.

Re: Ghost riders: the invisible lives of Johannesburg food couriers

#23

Post by zohch » Tue, Dec 14, 2021, 1:00 PM UTC

lelanthran wrote: post #22

smokey_circles wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So we're clear, I'm not proposing the west do any kind of reparations. You just won't calculate it and the damage is already done, a pay cheque isn't going to help. But you are wrong. I'd prefer it if they just left, take their corporations with them. They don't have to return anything, just go. Firstly, I am referring to the whole continent. The west didn't just destroy one nation, they took us all out (except Botsw…

A lot of your argument relies on the assertion that the West took resources from Africa. And yes, while that is true to some extent, it is not the whole story. > America's wealth was greatly enhanced by the railways built by the slaves they stole. IIRC (and wikipedia agrees: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_slave_trade ) the slaves were bought by the west. The theft was done by native Africans for the most part…

> If your are unhappy that the resources are being mined relentlessly and you are getting nothing in return, then ask yourself where that money is going. If you think the land is being destroyed, ask yourself why you voted in leaders who took the money in exchange for destroying the land.

I would bet money that the majority of the revenue of mineral sales actually goes to South Africans and not foreigners, and I would even bet money it is more than 75% of the revenue.

Re: Ghost riders: the invisible lives of Johannesburg food couriers

#24

Post by jimmydorry » Tue, Dec 14, 2021, 1:05 PM UTC

sgt wrote: post #17

Synaesthesia wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes we all suffer from crime ehere in south Africa, we all habe our stories and I'm really sorry about what happened to you, sounds terrible. But it's really devastating for someone who is already poor and vulnerable to eg have their phone stolen.

Not trying to downplay crime in South Africa, but I'd like to emphasize that not everyone is directly affected by crime in South Africa. The ones who have been (or the ones living in more exposed places) tend however to be more vocal about it.

Huh? In my time there, I did not have a single work colleague or person I interacted with that had not been impacted by crime (myself included). Every single one of them lived in gated communities and worked in a gated business complex.

It boggles the mind that someone can espouse the opposite when I even was on the receiving end within my first month there and taking all reasonable precautions.

Re: Ghost riders: the invisible lives of Johannesburg food couriers

#25

Post by piethesailorman » Tue, Dec 14, 2021, 1:11 PM UTC

smokey_circles wrote: post #20

zohch wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The western world has stolen enough wealth from us. South Africa has taken all the rope it had and hung itself with it. Sure the west stole enough from South Africa, but South Africans stole more from other South Africans than the west ever stole from South Africa, and they continue to steal from other South Africans, and will continue doing so. South Africa's biggest roadblock to prosperity is not the west, it is…

So we're clear, I'm not proposing the west do any kind of reparations. You just won't calculate it and the damage is already done, a pay cheque isn't going to help. But you are wrong. I'd prefer it if they just left, take their corporations with them. They don't have to return anything, just go. Firstly, I am referring to the whole continent. The west didn't just destroy one nation, they took us all out (except Botsw…

An american southerner with some nitpicks, specifically to one or two spots in your post.

1. The slaves were (largely) in the south until the abolishment of the instutution in the mid 1860's. Despite railroads being a Northern business("free as in freedom" labor) well before then. The heyday of railroad construction through out america began with the well know northern robber barrons of the 1870's 80's and 90's. In other words, no, slaves did not build the railroads; poor people from anywhere did; whites, recently made free(and poor) blacks, and in the american west, asians.

2. (As i understand it, someone show me otherwise) Africans who were shipped to America were not stolen from Africa. The western part of the continent was experiencing the introduction of the idea of nationalism. Certain west african tribes went on a warring land grab, and stole from other west africans. The conquering ethnicities didnt want the subjected ethicities around, and traded them for various goods at port to american northern shipping business. They, in turn, sold those individuals to southern traders in exchange for raw materials which then went on to the northern merchantile industry to then trade various final goods to nationalists in west africa for...

Anyway, just my two cents.

Re: Ghost riders: the invisible lives of Johannesburg food couriers

#26

Post by cycomanic » Tue, Dec 14, 2021, 1:14 PM UTC

lelanthran wrote: post #19

nsomaru wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, it isn’t stealing if you’ve built the labour and market system to cater to labour exploitation and wealth extraction. Most here live a very simple life in rural africa and would probably be content to do so if it wasn’t for taxation and labour demand. Sure we have our issues. Billions of rands poor out of this country, extracted by modern multinational neo-imperialists. If we blink the wrong way, the spectre of…

> I love my country and it’s people. I think we have enough to feed and house everyone. It often feels like other people are pulling the strings. Well, stop for voting the people pulling the strings... A quick example: The largest owner of land is the South African Government, and yet laws are pushed through to allow land to be confiscated from people of a particular race and "redistributed" to other people of a sele…

I think painting this as such a clear "black&white" issue you make it much too easy for yourself. This goes particular for South Africa, where much of the wealth disparity is because of the economic divisions that were created during colonization and apartheid live on.

On a more general this is similar to the arguments with libertarians who hold property rights up the highest, ... but only from now, ignoring the blatant disregard for property rights in history which cemented todays economic structures.

I don't have good answers how to deal with wrongs of the past, but it's clearly not simple.

Re: Ghost riders: the invisible lives of Johannesburg food couriers

#27

Post by lelanthran » Tue, Dec 14, 2021, 1:15 PM UTC

zohch wrote: post #23

lelanthran wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of your argument relies on the assertion that the West took resources from Africa. And yes, while that is true to some extent, it is not the whole story. > America's wealth was greatly enhanced by the railways built by the slaves they stole. IIRC (and wikipedia agrees: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_slave_trade ) the slaves were bought by the west. The theft was done by native Africans for the most part…

> If your are unhappy that the resources are being mined relentlessly and you are getting nothing in return, then ask yourself where that money is going. If you think the land is being destroyed, ask yourself why you voted in leaders who took the money in exchange for destroying the land. I would bet money that the majority of the revenue of mineral sales actually goes to South Africans and not foreigners, and I woul…

> I would bet money that the majority of the revenue of mineral sales actually goes to South Africans and not foreigners, and I would even bet money it is more than 75% of the revenue, based on how shitty South African mining shares are.

Maybe; I don't really know the details behind the sale of mineral rights but I DO know that they are never given away for free and that usually they are sold to the highest bidder. Maybe in the case mentioned by GP (Shell) the mineral rights were sold below what the market would have borne.

My heart breaks for the South African masses; and then I talk to them, and every impoverished person I speak to is certain that they would be worse off if they voted differently. Vote another party in power? Never - the party that has failed to govern South Africa effectively since 1994 is still in power!

South Africa's poverty is, at this point, self-inflicted. I have more than a few ideas on how this can be solved, but none of the solutions involve a) Race or b) kickbacks, so you can forget about SA digging itself out of this hole.

Re: Ghost riders: the invisible lives of Johannesburg food couriers

#28

Post by tibbydudeza » Tue, Dec 14, 2021, 1:17 PM UTC

When Covid lockdown started last year in May 2020 these folks popped up like crazy usually unlicensed, crappy bike handling skills (lane hogging) on these crappy slow poke two stroke Chinese made bikes.

Annoying to share the road with them esp @ night when I nearly took out one in my SUV because he jumped a red robot coming from a store - no reflective vest and only a dinky headlight.

Some of the bigger retail outfits do provide life insurance cover.

Re: Ghost riders: the invisible lives of Johannesburg food couriers

#29

Post by zohch » Tue, Dec 14, 2021, 1:26 PM UTC

cycomanic wrote: post #26

lelanthran wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I love my country and it’s people. I think we have enough to feed and house everyone. It often feels like other people are pulling the strings. Well, stop for voting the people pulling the strings... A quick example: The largest owner of land is the South African Government, and yet laws are pushed through to allow land to be confiscated from people of a particular race and "redistributed" to other people of a sele…

I think painting this as such a clear "black&white" issue you make it much too easy for yourself. This goes particular for South Africa, where much of the wealth disparity is because of the economic divisions that were created during colonization and apartheid live on. On a more general this is similar to the arguments with libertarians who hold property rights up the highest, ... but only from now, ignoring the blat…

> I don't have good answers how to deal with wrongs of the past, but it's clearly not simple.

But definitely voting for less shitty politicians won't fix it right ... I mean god forbid someone puts a stop to the uninhibited looting from your political class who are elected time and time again with legislative majorities or super-majorities. Definitely xenophobia is a much better solution ... lynched any Americans lately, maybe that will solve it, or is that something South Africans reserve for other Africans and Pakistanis?

Re: Ghost riders: the invisible lives of Johannesburg food couriers

#30

Post by zohch » Tue, Dec 14, 2021, 1:27 PM UTC

lelanthran wrote: post #27

zohch wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If your are unhappy that the resources are being mined relentlessly and you are getting nothing in return, then ask yourself where that money is going. If you think the land is being destroyed, ask yourself why you voted in leaders who took the money in exchange for destroying the land. I would bet money that the majority of the revenue of mineral sales actually goes to South Africans and not foreigners, and I woul…

> I would bet money that the majority of the revenue of mineral sales actually goes to South Africans and not foreigners, and I would even bet money it is more than 75% of the revenue, based on how shitty South African mining shares are. Maybe; I don't really know the details behind the sale of mineral rights but I DO know that they are never given away for free and that usually they are sold to the highest bidder. M…

> My heart breaks for the South African masses;

My heart used to break for them, but really, why shed a tear, this is what the South African masses vote for, and this is what they get good and hard, and god forbid anyone stands in their way of them getting it as good and hard as they possibly can get it before civil war finally burns the country to a cinder, at the very least they can find comfort in knowing south africans would have burned most of the county down before a civil war erupts:

- Why are South Africans burning schools in Limpopo? (https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-africa-36225502)

- Why Cape Town's trains are on fire in South Africa (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-45990981)

- South African university set ablaze in student protest (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/25/south-african-...)

Burning their country down seem to be their national passtime, or at least while they are not lynching foreigners. But I'm sure one of them will come along to blame the west for this also.