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Opt Out of Cynicism

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Re: Opt Out of Cynicism

#231

Post by necovek »

oblio wrote: post #207
kashyapc wrote: post #192

The inimitable Hans Rosling[1] used to call himself a "possibilist": People often call me an optimist, because I show them the enormous progress they didn't know about. That makes me angry. I'm not an optimist. That makes me sound naive. I'm a very serious “possibilist”. That's something I made up. It means someone who neither hopes without reason, nor fears without reason, someone who constantly resists the overdram…

This is a great quote. I'm probably going to be using that example in a lot of debates :-) Thank you!

Having had a premature baby, please don't: progress is rarely "linear". I agree that does not make the example inapplicable, it just makes it insensitive.

There are so many better examples to choose from that don't strike a personal nerve (at least, personal to this extent) with any of the audience. Or if your audience hasn't had this experience, it's a moot example that they can't really relate to.

Re: Opt Out of Cynicism

#232

Post by oblio »

necovek wrote: post #231
oblio wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a great quote. I'm probably going to be using that example in a lot of debates :-) Thank you!

Having had a premature baby, please don't: progress is rarely "linear". I agree that does not make the example inapplicable, it just makes it insensitive. There are so many better examples to choose from that don't strike a personal nerve (at least, personal to this extent) with any of the audience. Or if your audience hasn't had this experience, it's a moot example that they can't really relate to.

There's two things to unpack here.

First, the major one. Yes, it is an insensitive example so a better one should be one.

Secondly, regarding your comment regarding progress, human progress is also not linear. It's not even constantly and universally pointing in the right direction (there are frequent regressions, some bigger than others), let alone advancing at a constant speed.

Re: Opt Out of Cynicism

#233

Post by toyg »

iamacyborg wrote: post #219
The_Colonel wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The ones who fight corruption are the most corrupt. I can understand the other points, but not this one. Can you expand on that?

It's a nice catchy slogan that falls apart at the tiniest scrutiny.

Worse, it's a political agenda camouflaged as philosophical stance.

Re: Opt Out of Cynicism

#234

Post by marginalia_nu »

nefitty wrote: post #230
solveit wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing of the sort is implied. Everyone can have their own should (or not, as the case may be). But if you know you should do something, presumably you're past such useless philosophising. I know I should be nicer to the people I love, and > Why is there a "should"? Is there a unique and universal way to determine what someone should do? Given the same situation two different people can act in two different ways. Is…

In case someone reading this thread has never encountered this stance, I sincerely hold the belief that there are objective moral truths that we can discover with our senses and intuition.

What is the ends and purpose of these moral truths?

Re: Opt Out of Cynicism

#235

Post by xyzzy123 »

oblio wrote: post #220
jihadjihad wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't know this story so I looked it up [0]. According to Plutarch, it's true: Caesar was captured by pirates in his twenties, and was insulted by their lowball ransom of 20 talents--he thought he was worth at least 50. He told the pirates they should up the ransom and that once it was delivered and he was freed, he'd have them all crucified. They thought it was a pretty good joke. He wasn't joking. Once free, he…

It's actually an extreme case of privilege. The pirates were probably some very poor commoners who turned to a life of crime, while he was a member of one of the most powerful political families in Ancient Rome. His upbringing was nothing like that of what were probably children the dirt poor farmers. He was lucky that no one snapped (I imagine some did but the thought of such a huge amount of money meant that everyo…

"Do you know who I am?" there's no woke reading where Julius Caesar can be rehabiliated for modern sensibilities. It's still unbelievably badass.

I don't think you can retcon modern thinking on it, he was the actual thing and that was beautiful and terrible.

Re: Opt Out of Cynicism

#236

Post by axegon_ »

> By realizing that the world is always changing, and by stopping to complain, we opt out of seeing the world through cynical glasses, and become part of the change. When we realize that our life can change, we can change it.

The world isn't always changing for the better. And to be dead honest, seeing how covid unfolded and how it was handled, I'm more skeptical than ever. We have control over a lot of things in our lives and to be honest at no point in time in my life would I have imagined I'd be where I am now. It certainly turned out a lot better than my expectations during the first years of my adulthood. But sure enough there are a number of things in my life which are far worse than I would have anticipated and quite frankly I don't see anything I can do about them, yet plenty of them keep me up awake at night. And in those instances being cynical isn't necessarily a bad thing. And here we have the semantics and namely Diogenes who is widely known for his cynicism: he was anything but fond of ancient Greeks and his attitude towards them was exactly that: cynical. However, he was equally eager to change their living conditions. And I admit - I'm extremely cynical very often and in some instances this pushes me to change the things I dislike about me or my surroundings to the best of my abilities. Of course there are the instances which I mentioned earlier which are outside my control in which case... You know... Whatever, might as well shoot a few blanks for the sake of it.

Re: Opt Out of Cynicism

#237

Post by bambax »

netcan wrote: post #228
bambax wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Diogenes was doing an act he was really into it. He famously told Alexander the Great to fuck off and stop blocking the light (which leads me to think that the ultimate "fuck you money" is to have no money at all, and not want any). He would also walk around the market and masturbate in public, which the Athenians found disgraceful. When challenged about this he would reply: how happy would we be if we were able t…

So, assuming this isn't just a rumour spread by Diogenes himself.... Diogenes' barrel was in the middle of Corinth, where he could be seen & talked about. Where he could be vocally cynical of other people, etc. If Diogenes really wanted to be left alone, fill his belly and nap... he could have done this easily. Many Greek well-to-dos in his place did just retired to a quiet country life where no one bothers you. He d…

> Many Greek well-to-dos in his place

Well if he had zero money he couldn't retire to a quiet country life... That's why homeless people today do not choose to live in nice places in the countryside but instead sleep on the pavement in cities. It's much less pleasant but you starve less in the city.

Also, maybe he wanted to tell other people they were fools, not just "wanting to be seen not giving a fuck".

Sure, if you want to lecture people about themselves then you give a fuck about at least that, but it's different than simply trying to be the center of attention.

I really think Diogenes was a philosopher (Diogenes the character -- this is true whether he actually existed or not): he had a point of view that he wanted to share.

Re: Opt Out of Cynicism

#238

Post by toyg »

avgcorrection wrote: post #147
moksly wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a really sad outlook to me. After decades in Enterprise IT, many in the public sector of Scandinavia you’d probably expect me to be a cynic, and if you go through my post history you’ll see very recent examples of what looks like it, but I’m actually always rather optimistic. The healthy survival strategy in a world of shit isn’t to give up, it’s to fight on and hope for the best. It’s to come to the conclusi…

> In all my decades of working close to the political leadership and the top level decision makers, I can’t remember once meeting someone who wasn’t working for what they believed to be a better tomorrow. The cynic in me thinks that people who tend to rub shoulders with The Powerful tend to (for the most part) see them as well-intentioned (although perhaps flawed) people rather than to be critical of them. Because it…

I think you attribute a causality where none necessarily exists. Some of "The Powerful" are indeed absolute bastards "always looking out for n.1", but a lot of them are sincere in their motives - it's just that they often happen to be ideologically misguided or forced into backfiring compromises by circumstances or greater powers.

Arguably, the most visible ones are often very sincere - because otherwise they couldn't sustain the drive necessary to reach certain heights.

Re: Opt Out of Cynicism

#239

Post by chaoskanzlerin »

marginalia_nu wrote: post #234
nefitty wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In case someone reading this thread has never encountered this stance, I sincerely hold the belief that there are objective moral truths that we can discover with our senses and intuition.

What is the ends and purpose of these moral truths?

...work?

Re: Opt Out of Cynicism

#240

Post by nefitty »

marginalia_nu wrote: post #234
nefitty wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In case someone reading this thread has never encountered this stance, I sincerely hold the belief that there are objective moral truths that we can discover with our senses and intuition.

What is the ends and purpose of these moral truths?

They're ends in themselves.
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