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Bird populations declining fast across North America

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Re: Bird populations declining fast across North America

#141

Post by SkipperCat »

mmstgshj wrote: post #52
SkipperCat wrote: post #18

I think this and many of the similar problems plaguing the earth will only be solved with a drastic reduction of people on the planet. Get the population down to 1 or 2 billion of us and a lot of these issues go away. Deforesting, not an issue if the demand for lumber is cut down by 80%. Same for coal, oil, paving, lithium... It all gets solved with just less people. 8 billion people is just too much, even if we all…

I don't think that eco-fascism is the answer. The cause of this problem isn't people, it is capitalism and imperialism. 1/3rd of all emissions are produced by 20 companies The US Military alone puts out more carbon than the top 60 carbon emitters. “The Earth is not dying-it is being killed. And the people who are killing it have names and addresses.” — Utah Phillips

Who said eco-fascism? I say eco-family planning. Get everyone on board and in 3 or 4 generation things are better. Sure, its a pie in the sky idea, but since we're throwing ideas around....

Re: Bird populations declining fast across North America

#142

Post by quadrangle »

zip1234 wrote: post #105
moosey wrote: post #5

Until human society stops serving abstractions (like money) over things that are real, then real things will continually face consequence. These will still over into our lives in a multitude of ways until we no longer have real systems to support these abstractions. Loss of natural life is such a failure. Today we speak of stock markets, governments, businesses. Someday, our main concern will not be these shared drea…

Tax/price the negative externalities.

We have to start by acknowledging that externalities exist and tell the free-market-is-magic people to shut-up and acknowledge that the market doesn't automatically take care of everything.

Re: Bird populations declining fast across North America

#144

Post by peanut_worm »

I feed a massive colony of Icterids (blackbirds, grackles and cowbirds) that live in my backyard. They are so fun to watch. I fully believe they are close to apes in terms of intelligence.

Hopefully something can be done to save the declining bird population. America was able to almost totally reverse the impending extinction of Bald Eagles and Falcons through banning DDT, I can only pray similar action is taken in the future.

Re: Bird populations declining fast across North America

#146

Post by syshum »

JimTheMan wrote: post #120
jnwatson wrote: post #62

I’ve always imagined that we’re in this situation of creeping ecological and environmental collapse because of a long buildup over hundreds of years of bad priorities. But it isn’t. Most of the damage has taken place during our lives. Over half the carbon humans have emitted is after 1990. This isn’t an inherited problem. We’re doing this to ourselves. Right now.

There are simply too many of us and 'growth' will ultimately doom us unless we act fast. It won't matter if the percentage of clean energy is 50% if we are still emitting greenhouse gasses at 1990 levels. We need carbon zero yesterday to be honest, but the world is only just now waking up to this fact... The world going Carbon neutral by 2050-2060? The damage we are going to do between now and then will be phenomenal…

Going carbon zero "right now" will just trade one disaster for another. And some argue an even bigger diaster.

Energy is required for human life to live now. We cant go back with out massive famine and death. Just cutting boff energy production not get to Carbon zero NOW like many are demanding is not feesable, realistic, or moral

Re: Bird populations declining fast across North America

#147

Post by titzer »

lambdadmitry wrote: post #109
titzer wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just a reminder, but we solved, err, almost none of those things. The ozone layer hole has just barely stabilized, and might recover by 2075, acid rain was never a scientific concept, but a media scare, but leaded petrol did absolutely contaminate the air and water and that lead is still out there, so is most of the asbestos, we just let it be for the most part, as it is really expensive to deal with--I know, I have…

The ozone hole stabilising and recovering while we don't emit PFCs anymore is solving the issue. Acid rain is so real it has its own big Wiki article [0] and was solved through sulfur emission controls. Leaded petrol use stopped, asbestos is either phased out or has strict protocols for working with it rendering it harmless. Being "really expensive to deal with" is solving the problem, because the expense if the expe…

Thanks for the link, I didn't realize acid rain was as widespread a problem as it appears to be....which actually reinforces my point, in that the emissions that give rise to acid rain haven't stopped, they've just been reduced.

I haven't moved any goalposts on anything, it's just different standards. When someone says "I've solved problem X" one would assume that X is no longer a problem. That's the common assumption. All of the problems you mentioned and I commented on are still problems. The ozone hole is still a major problem that kills people and is affecting our planet. We project it will be closed, but it ain't closed. (And there have been flare-ups of CFC emissions). It's also a problem then once solved (when both of us are dead probably), will require constant vigilance against.

Your post came off as very rosy, like all these problems are solved and are in the past. Not the case.

Re: Bird populations declining fast across North America

#148

Post by refurb »

moosey wrote: post #5

Until human society stops serving abstractions (like money) over things that are real, then real things will continually face consequence. These will still over into our lives in a multitude of ways until we no longer have real systems to support these abstractions. Loss of natural life is such a failure. Today we speak of stock markets, governments, businesses. Someday, our main concern will not be these shared drea…

Money is real, it’s how we pay for medical care, welfare, etc.

Re: Bird populations declining fast across North America

#149

Post by titzer »

DantesKite wrote: post #93
titzer wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ouch. (they're exinct already). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passenger_pigeon

Feral pigeons are doing well. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feral_pigeon

An invasive species that human civilization brought with it is doing well? Hold the phone, call off the emergency alert. Next we'll be hearing the insect decline is no problem because there are more mosquitoes than ever (which we also brought with us around the world).

Re: Bird populations declining fast across North America

#150

Post by makeitdouble »

moosey wrote: post #5

Until human society stops serving abstractions (like money) over things that are real, then real things will continually face consequence. These will still over into our lives in a multitude of ways until we no longer have real systems to support these abstractions. Loss of natural life is such a failure. Today we speak of stock markets, governments, businesses. Someday, our main concern will not be these shared drea…

This comment is really hard to parse.

"homelessness", "pollution" and "healthy" are abstractions that try to capture in single concept a myriad of different realities, and most of us won't have similar concrete representation of what's behind them. This of course becomes an issue real fast because because solving "homelessness" for instance requires separating all these different cases in their own buckets and coming with appropriate solutions to all of them.

Also money is as real as the food you buy with it, the electricity that comes if you keep paying your bills and the factories you buy with them.

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