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Professional maintainers: a wake-up call

blog.filippo.io

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Re: Professional maintainers: a wake-up call

#451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No not at all. My comment was a reply to your argument: > One of the things that distinguishes humans as a species is how extremely social, how extremely cooperative we are Where I point out that what you are saying is not true in general. But it is true within a group (say a company) and not between groups (say between companies and OSS maintainers). Groups that corporate well within the group have an evolutionary a…

Again, you made a claim about the evolved nature of humanity. It seems like you can't back it up. Bluster all you want, but if you can't come up with actual citations, I think we're done here.

There are a huge number of references online. Just Google “in group out group social evolution”. Or simply go to Wikipedia for a quick summary:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In-group_and_out-group

Now I think we are done here.

Re: Professional maintainers: a wake-up call

#452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you talking about? You are the one that's making the following claim: > That isn't "the world". It's a relatively small set of people in a relatively small chunk of history that see themselves as entitled to make endless profit ... Which is a claim that can't be proven either way since you are talking about how people in all of history was thinking . In other words, you are making a claim that is just wishfu…

You have made a claim about "how the world works". Where's your backing for it?

You made the opposite claim. Where is your evidence for it?

Re: Professional maintainers: a wake-up call

#453
post #442

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are not getting my point. I am reacting to the OSS maintainers that get upset when the intrinsic value of their work doesn't automatically convert to market value ($ in their pockets). My point is to stop blaming the world and instead put a market value on their work for corporations.

Can you please stop posting in the flamewar style to HN? You've been it a lot in these threads. I'm afraid it's repetitive and it lowers the quality of the discussion. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

I am surprised you would see my comments as engaging in a flamewar dang. If you look at my comment history it should be clear that I in general don’t do that. Perhaps also take into consideration the many upvotes my comments have received. However I acknowledge that I might have been a bit more snarky in my comments than was strictly necessary to get my point across.

Re: Professional maintainers: a wake-up call

#454
post #74

> Now is the perfect time for Open Source maintainers to become legible to the big companies that depend on them—and that want to get more out of them—and send them five-to-six figure invoices. Well, this is exactly what I've been doing around VideoLAN (VLC, x264) and FFmpeg for the last few years. In order to do that, I've created 2 official companies Videolabs and FFlabs (besides the non-profit orgs) and I've gone…

What's the largest company that uses FFmpeg and has refused? What did they say?

> What's the largest company that uses FFmpeg and has refused? What did they say?

I won't give names, but some very large cloud providers and some very large chips vendors.

Re: Professional maintainers: a wake-up call

#455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Given this situation, why will they pay for what they can get for free? > If everybody consumes and nobody contributes, how long will that last? That doesn't answer the GP question, which is all about incentives. The answer is, at least some parties won't pay for what they can get for free. So the options are: a) deal with it b) require payment c) come up with some way to incentivize more donations

Those aren't the only answers. The notion that people only respond to direct incentives is incorrect and ahistorical. It's a convenient dogma for the selfish to promote, but I don't have to take it seriously at all. Another perfectly good option is for tech people to build strong cultural expectations that people and companies who benefit from a commons should help keep it healthy. Which is what's happening right her…

> tech people [need] to build strong cultural expectations that people and companies who benefit from a commons should help keep it healthy

Agreed on this, but the "and companies" thing is a total red herring. Two things to note: even though you mention "people and companies", it's incredibly clear from popular sentiment that the conception held by most people of the problem/solution comes down to the latter (companies) and not the former (people). Focusing on companies at all—let alone allowing it to occupy a majority share of one's focus—is a huge mistake. Depersonalized abstract entities like companies are almost entirely immune to whatever methods of persuasion people have in mind here. Gay rights only just became kosher to "take a stand" on, and even then it's invariably limited to being trotted out as a vehicle for the most empty and self-serving marketing horseshit and other corporate speak that anyone should expect to come out of these institutions. Cultural pressure for open source by way of shaming companies doesn't stand a chance; it has to come down to people.

I've brought up the subject before: why do we rake companies over the coals for their inaction, but ignore the individuals? It's worth reflecting on the relationship between a company and its employees.

A company, no matter how many layers of management are involved, delegates some problem to an employee. That employee surveys the lay of the land and then elects to use some tech that is available from the commons towards solving the problem. In turn, they are rewarded by their employer in both tangibles and intangibles that are considered proportionate to the achievement and budgeted accordingly. Thus, that person is, in a very real way, converting the labor of others into personal gain—in the form of wealth, career prospects/advancement, and personal stature in wider society.

Why is it easy to frame a company as the perpetrator and hard to say anything about any given developer who benefited from this (and did not share)? Because it's uncomfortable, since it's too personal? That might make sense if we were talking about, say, a custodian with limited career prospects just doing their best to keep their head above water and provide for their family already, but that tends not to be the case where software development is involved. The implication here is clear. (Forget, for now, the prior argument I just made about effectiveness for a moment and feel free to focus just on the fairness aspect here, if it uncomplicates things.) If there's any appropriate allocation of social pressure to be meted out—resulting in social expectations to be met—then it needs to come in the form of beliefs like, "hey, if as part of your employment you are singlehandedly making something like twice the US national average of an entire household, and you're not giving away at _least_ 10% of your salary to the people who made that possible, then you're kind of a piece of shit." Is that a stand that people are willing to make, though?

It's acceptable to disagree with this, but to understand why you feel it's justified to defend the individuals involved means that you have everything you need to understand why there is no movement on the problem. Perennially and impotently opining that companies need to quit screwing around and do something already is a ridiculous strategy.

Re: Professional maintainers: a wake-up call

#457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a good question! However I am not sure what that has to do with what I am saying? People pay for over priced luxury goods all the time. There are psychological reasons for that (signaling wealth among other things).

Not just psychological but convenience, reliability and status all of which can apply to oss consulting/patronage

If you look at the commenter's other messages, you seem very much to be making their point for them. The thing that they are advocating for is what you seem to be trying to, through snark, give them an education on.

No one makes coach tickets available for free and then asks people to pay after the fact. Certainly no one would do that and then complain that the system is broken because nobody is paying. People, on the whole, do not behave in a way that's compatible with that kind of thing, and the expected outcome there matches the outcome that we see today with (un)-sustainable open source.

Re: Professional maintainers: a wake-up call

#458
post #173
post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was responding to the parent comment not the article. The article makes great point. It essentially talks about a services and support business around open source. Some have been doing this for decades. When you have contracts and support at a cost you aren't doing the work for free. The article is talking about running open source like a business rather than a volunteer situation. That means, you're not doing ever…

> It essentially talks about a services and support business around open source. Which is _exactly_ what we are doing...

This comment is pretty disingenuous. (I personally found it a bit obnoxious.)

The person you're responding to made it very clear that they were responding to your conclusion that "large SV companies and startup should also start agreeing to pay for open source, when it's the core of the tech". The fact that you have support and services available isn't a "gotcha!" that refutes the point they are making, which is that given that there is also a zero-cost "product" available, then (unsurprisingly) prospective customers prefer that one instead.

Re: Professional maintainers: a wake-up call

#459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn’t answer your question but something I’ve wondered about as well. I don’t maintain any open source software (yet?) but if I were to start a project I’d likely use a permissive license. I don’t want to start a philosophical flame war about licenses, but this idea makes sense to me. The details will likely take work to iron out, but why not have open source licenses with a clause for companies with over a certain…

What you're describing is not an open source license. You seem to be looking for something akin to the Unreal Engine license, which Wikipedia describes as "source-available commercial software."

Thanks for that term. I found the Commons Clause[0] that goes along with any existing permissive license.

[0]: https://commonsclause.com/

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