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Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

economist.com

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Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#291

Post by bawolff »

EricDeb wrote: post #230
csallen wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why should 1 out of 5 people belong to a group so wealthy that saying mobility is difficult should be considered problematic? Why is it a bad thing that so many people are so wealthy? The more people who belong to the so-wealthy-it's-hard-to-achieve group, the better.

One reason is because it's almost impossible to prevent extremely wealthy people from having undue influence on politics. Another reason would be that most rich people don't allocate capital in a way that's good for society. Some do, most don't. We tend to hear about the ones that do.

> it's almost impossible to prevent extremely wealthy people from having undue influence on politics.

Money is basically an abstract representation of power, so that's almost a tautology.

> Another reason would be that most rich people don't allocate capital in a way that's good for society

This is an interesting claim? What is good for society, and relative to whom?

I suppose the obvious comparison would be relative to "poor" people, but poor people don't really intentionally allocate capital at all by virtue of barely having enough for their immediate needs. Even the selfish rich people tend to invest their capital, usually into lucrative projects that make money by fulfilling some need of society. I guess i wonder if that's so bad, or at least if its worse than the other social classes would do.

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#292

Post by Jensson »

newfriend wrote: post #266
Jensson wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A big difference is that USA puts you in jail for years for relatively minor things like possessing drugs. Europe might have laws banning some things USA doesn't, but the laws USA has are so much more oppressive since the American justice system and police are much less lenient.

Or maybe different populations of people value different things? If you value DUDE WEED over free speech, feel free to move to your Euro paradise.

You don't have free speech in USA, your government put people behind bars who airs their dirty laundry. Governments imprisoning people who dig up evidence that they are corrupt is definitely not free speech. I have never seen or even read about anyone guard their speech against governments in my country, speech is essentially free in most of Europe, UK and German are exceptions.

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#293

Post by throwaway894345 »

csallen wrote: post #100
forgotmyoldname wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean... that doesn't detract from the problem at all. That just says there's a massive wealth divide and that moving up to the mere top 20% (the group 1 out of 5 people belong to) should be considered a ridiculous proposition unless you're born into it. Why should 1 out of 5 people belong to a group so wealthy that saying mobility is difficult should be considered problematic?

> Why should 1 out of 5 people belong to a group so wealthy that saying mobility is difficult should be considered problematic? Why is it a bad thing that so many people are so wealthy? The more people who belong to the so-wealthy-it's-hard-to-achieve group, the better.

I agree, but if we don’t account for wealth inequality, then we can fail to get there because our government tends to optimize for the already-wealthy at the expense of everyone else. This happens due to special interest lobbyists who make sure that every law tips the scales a bit in favor of their wealthy patrons (it’s like playing hungry hungry hippos on a table that tilts downwards toward the rich). The more inequality we have, the more greater the extent to which the government serves the interests of the wealthy class, which in turn exacerbates inequality. So we should make sure we are actually making more wealthy people and not just helping the already-wealthy grease the pole for others.

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#294

Post by gnicholas »

mitigating wrote: post #64
rpmisms wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm telling an anecdotal story, and in my area the working class is very Catholic, black, or both. YMMV, not valid in California.

California has one of the lowest divorce rates in the entire country https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/articles/states-with...

This may be influenced by the fact that CA also has one of the lowest marriage rates in the country: https://www.census.gov/library/visualizations/interactive/ma...

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#295

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

Jensson wrote: post #288
PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's a "person like me" ? What do I believe? Or not believe?

The answer to your comment is obviously genes, so the only reason anyone would write in such a comment is that they reject that explanation. Blank slate people are always everywhere in threads like this.

Wrong.

Just below is my response to someone else, and the point there is just as relevant as here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29537081

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#296

Post by 8note »

refurb wrote: post #58

Again, it's highly problematic defining mobility as "moving from bottom quintile to top quintile". - Moving from bottom quintile to 2nd highest is significant mobility and completely ignored in this analysis. - The analysis ignores the fact that the highest quintile in the US is higher in absolute terms than other countries. So moving from bottom to 4th may give more income than bottom to 5th in other countries. - Th…

Is it a fact that the highest quintile is higher in the states? I imagine that Putin and MBS are extraordinarily wealthy

What evidence shows that to be a fact? Do these Americans have proven wealth, or is it all on paper?

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#297

Post by dredmorbius »

bawolff wrote: post #291
EricDeb wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One reason is because it's almost impossible to prevent extremely wealthy people from having undue influence on politics. Another reason would be that most rich people don't allocate capital in a way that's good for society. Some do, most don't. We tend to hear about the ones that do.

> it's almost impossible to prevent extremely wealthy people from having undue influence on politics. Money is basically an abstract representation of power, so that's almost a tautology. > Another reason would be that most rich people don't allocate capital in a way that's good for society This is an interesting claim? What is good for society, and relative to whom? I suppose the obvious comparison would be relative…

"Wealth, as Mr Hobbes says, is power."

-- Adam Smith, Wealth of Nations, 1776

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#298

Post by 8note »

onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #140
forgotmyoldname wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean... that doesn't detract from the problem at all. That just says there's a massive wealth divide and that moving up to the mere top 20% (the group 1 out of 5 people belong to) should be considered a ridiculous proposition unless you're born into it. Why should 1 out of 5 people belong to a group so wealthy that saying mobility is difficult should be considered problematic?

56% of Americans spend at least one year in the top 10%, and 73% spend one year in the top 20% [1]. [1] https://www.aei.org/carpe-diem/evidence-shows-significant-in... American mobility isn't bad because people can't make it to the top - you can, more so than almost anywhere in the world. It's bad because a significant portion of people at the bottom stay stuck at the bottom their whole life. Compared to countries in…

Isn't that selling your house to immediately move into another house for the same price?

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#299

Post by sfifs »

Swizec wrote: post #250
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read about another study relatively recently (maybe it was HN? Not sure.) that talked about some of the fundamental flaws when looking at these types of economic mobility studies (i.e. change of moving from bottom quintile to top quintile, etc.) because they usually only look at income and ignore social class . That is, suppose Bob is a rich banker. His kid Frank goes to private school and on to an Ivy League colle…

It’s easy to choose the artist life if your parents can bail you out when shit happens. A little harder if you’re expected to be the bail out for your parents.

Very true. I've literally seen this play out with some friends and cousins in extended family in the last 10-15 years. At a critical period, some had to find work to support the family especially as the health of parents started failing, the ones who could rely on family wealth were able to focus full time or almost full time on their art and are now climbing the echelons as established artists.

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#300

Post by gnicholas »

If you're interested in social mobility, I'd highly recommend the recent book The Meritocracy Trap. [1] The author, a Yale Law professor, talks about how aristocracy has been largely replaced by meritocracy in the US, and what the consequences are for both middle class and elites.

His takeaway is that there is a yawning gap opening up between middle class and elites, and that neither group is well-served by this gap. The middle class have less mobility than before, at least when it comes to achieving super-elite levels. And the elite class work themselves to death and prompt their children to do the same.

1: https://www.amazon.com/Meritocracy-Trap-Foundational-Inequal...

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