Americans overestimate social mobility in their country • Hacker News Board

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#21

Post by blown_gasket » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 2:11 AM UTC

echelon wrote: post #8

America is being attacked by pervasive narratives like this. News rags the whole world over are shitting on us, meanwhile authoritarian regimes are rising to power. It's a narrative dismantling, and we're being played like fools. America is still the best country in the world to start a business and take risks. America still has more freedoms (speech especially) than most of the world. (Side note: The left wants to p…

'America is still the best country in the world to start a business and take risks'. Do you have any data to back this up? I'm purely curious. Note you didn't state, 'and make an insanely large sum of money there', so I wouldn't be surprised if there were many more countries where it would be a good choice.

'America has more freedoms than most of the world'. What is in parenthesis is a sweeping generalization and what are you defining as 'most of the world'.

I'm not even sure what you're getting at with the NATO statement in relation to social mobility.

Frankly I'm not sure what is perverse about this article. Isn't it called the American Dream for a reason?

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#22

Post by systemvoltage » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 2:11 AM UTC

echelon wrote: post #8

America is being attacked by pervasive narratives like this. News rags the whole world over are shitting on us, meanwhile authoritarian regimes are rising to power. It's a narrative dismantling, and we're being played like fools. America is still the best country in the world to start a business and take risks. America still has more freedoms (speech especially) than most of the world. (Side note: The left wants to p…

I'd just like to point out one thing I've noticed quite a bit and would love Europeans to chime in - that is - European exceptionalism. We, Americans, were known for American exceptionalism but that has eroded to a point where I haven't heard a single good thing about America in the last decade or so. We're shameful and contemptful of our nation. Slightest positive thing is considered nationalistic and right-wing, so we've become accustomed to similar mindset as the Germans post-WWII with regards to nationalism.

But, I am seeing some rise of European exceptionalism and wonder if things have changed over in Europe? Is it more united? Even small things like '.eu' domain is proudly used. I'd be damned if I use '.us' domain. Just a small example of many.

About the only time I see HackerNews coming together is when we talk about semiconductor industry in USA. There is a sense of optimism to invest in US semiconductor industry - but it is short lived.

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#23

Post by rpmisms » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 2:11 AM UTC

Social mobility is very different than economic mobility. It's not hugely difficult to earn six figures in the US if you're committed, work hard, and pick a good field. Heck, I did it without any college.

Social mobility is a different story. I was raised in a rural area, which is essentially a social class of its own. Since becoming an adult, I've found myself gravitating towards working-class people. I like the bluntness, the awareness of real issues, and the family values. I make more money than many of the yuppies who live a mile away, but socially, I'm several rungs "below" them.

I could get a nice haircut, mow my lawn properly, get divorced, and fit right in, if I chose to, but I don't want to. I think you'll find many lower-class Americans wouldn't, even if they knew how to.

Edit: by "Working class", I mean blue-collar and not wealthy. The salary cap is a little higher than the traditional definition, but I think it's a more accurate representation of middle America.

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#24

Post by rowanajmarshall » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 2:13 AM UTC

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #15

I think perhaps the US makes it hard for a single person to move from bottom to top quintile. But I bet that the US is the country that makes it the easiest for you to be in the bottom quintile and have grandchildren in the top quintile. Basically, I think the US is likely the best for generational family mobility. I have seen this story many times with immigrants. The immigrants come over and work often very menial…

> Basically, I think the US is likely the best for generational family mobility. I have seen this story many times with immigrants

What makes you think this doesn't happen so much in other countries?

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#25

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 2:14 AM UTC

ipeefreely wrote: post #3

Social mobility is really hard to measure, but all else equal, I think America is the best place in the world for a poor person to become filthy rich (top 0.1%) but not the best place in the world for a poor person to simply transition to middle/upper class.

[deleted]

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#26

Post by lmm » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 2:17 AM UTC

echelon wrote: post #8

America is being attacked by pervasive narratives like this. News rags the whole world over are shitting on us, meanwhile authoritarian regimes are rising to power. It's a narrative dismantling, and we're being played like fools. America is still the best country in the world to start a business and take risks. America still has more freedoms (speech especially) than most of the world. (Side note: The left wants to p…

> America is still the best country in the world to start a business and take risks.

Not convinced. Serious illness can happen to anyone at any time, especially under the stress of running a business, and America has one of the weakest safety nets for a developed country.

> America still has more freedoms (speech especially) than most of the world.

The First Amendment is a great thing, but it can't maintain a culture of free speech on its own. The US's at-will firing (particularly combined with employer-dependent healthcare) means many Americans find it harder to express their views openly than people in other countries.

> Europeans don't give us enough credit. And they're replete with their own crises to always be pointing the finger.

European countries argue a lot, but there's a deep mutual respect underlying it. A willingness to reflect and see what other countries are doing better is vital in the long run.

> We're optimists, but the media is telling us not to be. They want us to yell at each other and drive ourselves into the dirt.

There's definitely a strain of hair-shirt criticism that's more interested in wallowing in self-denigration than making things better. But acknowledging the problems is important too.

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#27

Post by atoav » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 2:17 AM UTC

VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #17

atoav wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it would be easier to become "filthy rich" for a poor person when they start in a nation with free healthcare and education. Because both of those things have a big chance of impacting your poor person's career lastingly if they don't have luck. Most of the 0.1% inherited their wealth or at least came from an well educated background.

> I think it would be easier to become "filthy rich" for a poor person when they start in a nation with free healthcare and education. Poor people in USA have both free healthcare and education. If they're willing to fill-out some forms. Edit: Yes, contrary to the popular belief, poor people in USA do, in fact, get free health care and education.

> If they're willing to fill-out some forms.

How does that part work in practise? Are these forms something someone from a poor uneducated background can actually realistically fill out?

The way I see it many Americans I had the chance to talk with either take a gamble on their health or they spend not unsignificant time and energy to find their ways through the system. The first choice can turn out just fine, or (in many cases) completely catastrophic. The second choice takes away time and resources that could have been spent somewhere else.

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#28

Post by baby » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 2:18 AM UTC

rpmisms wrote: post #23

Social mobility is very different than economic mobility. It's not hugely difficult to earn six figures in the US if you're committed, work hard, and pick a good field. Heck, I did it without any college. Social mobility is a different story. I was raised in a rural area, which is essentially a social class of its own. Since becoming an adult, I've found myself gravitating towards working-class people. I like the blu…

Ah, survivor bias

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#29

Post by lnxg33k1 » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 2:18 AM UTC

echelon wrote: post #8

America is being attacked by pervasive narratives like this. News rags the whole world over are shitting on us, meanwhile authoritarian regimes are rising to power. It's a narrative dismantling, and we're being played like fools. America is still the best country in the world to start a business and take risks. America still has more freedoms (speech especially) than most of the world. (Side note: The left wants to p…

But I think for the Americans at the lower classes NATO, and regimes are worthless, if you are a guy who is going to die in a warehouse because you're going to be forced to work during a weather emergency, then a change of master is just a change of your master. American middle class is shrinking, it has less financial power, workers have less contractual power and less rights, so maybe instead of these useless Hollywood movies-like discourses about unity and NATO, one should address those issues, when you're a worker being replaced by a non-union one because your yearly raise doesn't even cover inflation then it all seems useless.

I am really surprised that this game still works, US needed USSR as an enemy to unite workers and keep them aligned in order to produce to fight communism, now it's the time of Russia and China, and "regimes", that from one side are being depicted as an enemy to fight and against which the people need to unite, and from another side are being used by corporations in order to manufacture and to grow their user base, I would suggest to Americans to stop caring about the enemy in China and to start caring more about their enemies in congress and in the CEO office

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#30

Post by postpawl » Mon, Dec 13, 2021, 2:18 AM UTC

rpmisms wrote: post #23

Social mobility is very different than economic mobility. It's not hugely difficult to earn six figures in the US if you're committed, work hard, and pick a good field. Heck, I did it without any college. Social mobility is a different story. I was raised in a rural area, which is essentially a social class of its own. Since becoming an adult, I've found myself gravitating towards working-class people. I like the blu…

Only 8% of people in the United States make more than $100k: https://graphics.wsj.com/what-percent/

Don't know if I'd call it easy if it's something only 8 out of 100 people do. It also depends on the area. $100k in SF is a lot different than $100k in the mid-west.